.........
The proceedings are
reported in the language in which they were spoken in the
committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:15.
The meeting began at 09:15.
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Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan
Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of
Interest
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[1]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rŷm
ni’n dechrau’r cyfarfod ffurfiol, a chroeso i bawb. Nid
oes ymddiheuriadau neu ddirprwyon yma heddiw. Os bydd larwm
tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd
tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau tywyswyr a’r staff.
Ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod
yn dawel.
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Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you very much. We start the formal meeting, and
welcome to everybody. There are no apologies or substitutions here
today. In the event of a fire alarm, everyone should leave the room
via the fire exits and follow instructions from the ushers and
staff. An alarm is not expected today. Everyone should turn their
mobile phones to silent.
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[2]
The National Assembly does operate bilingually, and headphones are
available to hear simultaneous translation and to adjust the audio
for people who are hard of hearing. Simultaneous translation is
available on channel 1 and sound amplification on channel 0.
|
[3]
Peidiwch â chyffwrdd y botymau
sy’n o’ch blaen chi oherwydd y gall hyn amharu ar y
system, a gwnewch yn siŵr bod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau
siarad.
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Do not touch
any of the buttons on the microphones because this can disable the
system, and ensure that the red light is on before speaking.
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[4]
A oes gan unrhyw fuddiannau i’w
datgan yma y bore yma? Na.
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Has anyone got
any interests to declare this morning? No.
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09:16
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Ymchwiliad i Strategaeth y Gymraeg Ddrafft Llywodraeth
Cymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 4
Inquiry into the Welsh Government’s Draft Welsh Language
Strategy: Evidence Session 4
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[5]
Bethan Jenkins:
Eitem 2: ymchwiliad i strategaeth yr
iaith Gymraeg ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru—sesiwn dystiolaeth.
Mae gennym ni dystion yma heddiw—Gwilym Dyfri Jones, dirprwy
is-ganghellor cysylltiol, Prifysgol Cymru y Drindod Dewi
Sant—croeso i chi—a Daniel Tiplady, rheolwr darpariaeth
cyfrwng Cymraeg Prifysgol Metropolitan Caerdydd—a chroeso i
chi hefyd.
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Bethan
Jenkins: Item 2: inquiry into the Welsh Government’s
draft Welsh language strategy—evidence session. We have
witnesses here today—Gwilym Dyfri Jones, associate pro
vice-chancellor at the University of Wales Trinity Saint
David—welcome to you—and Daniel Tiplady, Welsh-medium
provision manager at Cardiff Metropolitan University—welcome
to you as well.
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[6]
Mr Tiplady: Diolch yn
fawr.
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Mr
Tiplady: Thank you.
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[7]
Bethan Jenkins:
Mae yna nifer o gwestiynau gennym ni
fel Aelodau Cynulliad, ac rŷm ni’n mynd i fynd i
gwestiynau yn syth. Ac felly, i gychwyn, roeddwn i jest eisiau
gofyn—beth ydych chi’n meddwl o’r amcan
llywodraethol o gael 1 filiwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050? Pa fath o
newidiadau yr ydych chi’n credu sydd eu hangen yn ymarferol
er mwyn ceisio gwireddu hynny? Os oes enghreifftiau gyda chi ar hyd
y ffordd o sut y gall hyn ddigwydd, yna plîs rhannwch nhw
gyda ni fel pwyllgor. Ond beth, yn reddfol, yw eich barn
ynglŷn â’r amcan yma yn benodol? Diolch yn
fawr.
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Bethan
Jenkins: There are a number of questions that we have as
Members, and we’re going to go straight to questions. And so,
to start with, I just wanted to ask what you think of the Welsh
Government’s stated aim of reaching 1 million Welsh speakers
by 2050. What sort of changes do you think are needed on a
practical level to try to realise that, and if you have any
examples along the way of how this could happen, then please share
them with us as a committee. So, instinctively, what are your views
on this aim specifically? Thank you.
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[8]
Mr Jones: Iawn. Wel, yn y lle cyntaf, diolch yn fawr iawn
i chi am y cyfle yma y bore yma. Fel sefydliad, rŷm ni’n
croesawu strategaeth ddrafft y Llywodraeth yn fawr iawn. Rŷm
ni’n croesawu’r ffaith bod modd cynllunio ar gyfer yr
hirdymor. Mae yna nodau clir iawn yn y ddogfen. Yn hynny o beth,
rŷm ni’n pryderu rhywfaint nad oes yna, ar hyn o bryd,
raglen waith neu gynllun gweithredu a thargedau tymor byr, felly,
fel y gellid mesur cynnydd o flwyddyn i flwyddyn neu o gyfnod i
gyfnod. Rŷm ni hefyd yn llawn sylweddoli bod llawer iawn o
randdeiliaid yn cefnogi’r Gymraeg ar hyn o bryd, ac mi hoffem
ni weld elfen ychydig mwy gydweithredol yn cael ei phwysleisio yn y
ddogfen, lle bod rôl a swyddogaethau'r holl randdeiliaid yn
cael eu diffinio ychydig bach yn gliriach, a bod pawb yn ymwybodol
o’u cyfrifoldeb a’u cyfraniad posibl nhw at y
strategaeth.
|
Mr
Jones: Well, first of all, thank you very much for the
opportunity to appear before you this morning. As an institution,
we welcome the Welsh Government’s draft strategy very warmly.
We welcome the fact that we can plan for the long term. There are
clearly set out goals in the document. We are a little concerned
that, at the moment, there is no action plan and short-term targets
in place, so that we can measure progress from year to year or from
stage to stage. We also fully understand that many stakeholders
support the Welsh language at the moment, and I would like to see a
more collaborative element emphasised in the document, where the
role and functions of all of those stakeholders could be more
clearly defined, so that everyone should be aware of their
responsibilities and of their possible contribution to the
strategy.
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[9]
Ond yn gyffredinol,
rŷm ni yn croesawu cyfeiriad y strategaeth ac
rŷm ni’n sicr, fel sefydliad, yn awyddus iawn i
chwarae rhan weithredol a chadarnhaol i fynd â’r maen
i’r wal, felly.
|
But generally
speaking, we welcome the direction of travel of the strategy, and
as an institution, we are very eager to play an active and positive
role in achieving this goal, therefore.
|
[10]
Bethan Jenkins:
A oes gyda chi—?
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Bethan
Jenkins: Do you have anything?
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[11]
Mr Tiplady: Dim ond ategu beth mae Gwilym wedi’i
ddweud—rŷm ni’n hapus iawn gyda’r targed, ac
mae’n rhywbeth positif iawn y gallwn ni anelu tuag ato. Un
cwestiwn sydd gyda ni fel sefydliad yw: beth yw’r diffiniad o
siaradwr Cymraeg? Rŷm ni’n teimlo bod hynny’n
rhywbeth pwysig iawn i’w ddiffinio. Rŷm ni’n ei
weld e ymysg ein staff ac ymysg ein myfyrwyr ni—mae’r
rhan fwyaf o bobl yn tanwerthu eu gallu yn y Gymraeg. Ymysg ein
staff ni, mae rhyw 30 y cant yn nodi bod ganddyn nhw sgiliau yn y
Gymraeg; o’r rheini, dim ond 5 y cant sy’n nodi eu bod
nhw’n rhugl yn y Gymraeg. Felly, mae’n darged
uchelgeisiol, mae’n darged y gallem ni anelu ato, ac
mae’n rhywbeth positif iawn, ond rwy’n credu bod eisiau
diffinio, fel y targedau ac fel y camau y mae Gwilym wedi’u
nodi, beth rŷm ni’n ystyried fel siaradwr
Cymraeg.
|
Mr
Tiplady: I just want to endorse what Gwilym has said.
We’re very happy with the target and it’s a very
positive thing that we can aim for. One question that we do have as
an institution is: what is the definition of a Welsh speaker? We
feel that that is something that’s very important to define.
We see it amongst our staff and our students—the majority of
people tend to undervalue their use of Welsh. Amongst our staff,
about 30 per cent note they have skills in the Welsh language, but
of those, only 5 per cent note that they are fluent. So, it is
quite an ambitious target. It’s a target that we can aim for,
and it’s very positive, but I think we need to define, as the
targets and the steps that Gwilym has noted, what we consider to be
a Welsh speaker.
|
[12]
Bethan Jenkins:
A gaf i jest ofyn yn gyflym, felly:
sut ydych chi fel mudiad yn ei ddiffinio fe ar hyn o bryd? Achos
rŷm ni wedi clywed hynny, ond, wrth gwrs, mae’n bwysig
ein bod ni’n deall ei fod e ddim yn gysyniad newydd o ran
ennyn pobl i siarad Cymraeg. Sut fyddech chi’n diffinio
hynny, yn eich barn chi, yn barod, fel ein bod ni yn cael rhyw fath
o ddealltwriaeth, ai dim ond dweud ‘bore da’,
‘shwmâi’, ‘hwyl fawr’, neu ai cynnal
rhyw fath o ddadl yn y Gymraeg?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Could I just ask quickly, therefore: how, as an
organisation, do you define it at the moment? Because we have heard
that, but, of course, it’s important that we understand that
it’s not a new concept in terms of attracting people to speak
Welsh. How would you define that, in your view, so that we have
some understanding? Is it is just saying ‘good
morning’, ‘hello’ ‘goodbye’, or is it
holding some sort of discussion or debate in the Welsh
language?
|
[13]
Mr Tiplady: Roeddwn i’n meddwl y byddech chi’n
gofyn y cwestiwn yna i fi, ac mae’n flin gyda fi, ond nid oes
ateb da neu ateb perffaith gyda fi, ta beth. Mae gwahanol bobl yn
rhoi eu hunain ar wahanol
lefelau. Beth rŷm ni wedi bod yn ei wneud yw edrych ar: peth
sgiliau yn y Gymraeg, rhai sgiliau yn y Gymraeg a rhugl yn y
Gymraeg. Rŷm ni nawr, wrth baratoi tuag at y safonau iaith
nawr, yn symud tuag at bump lefel o ddatganiadau positif
ynglŷn â gallu yn y Gymraeg—y can-do
statements—ynglŷn â ble rŷm ni yn y
Gymraeg. Rŷm ni wedi ffeindio ein bod ni’n symud oddi
wrth y syniad hwn o’r Gymraeg yn hanfodol, neu fod yn rhugl
yn y Gymraeg, achos beth sy’n digwydd yw, wrth drial denu
myfyrwyr ac aelodau o staff sy’n gallu gweithio drwy gyfrwng
y Gymraeg, rŷch chi’n rhoi ofn i lot o bobl, felly mae
trial ei ddiffinio fe yn rhywbeth anodd, a beth rŷm ni
wedi’i wneud yw, yn hytrach na thrial diffinio beth yw
siaradwr Cymraeg, ar gyfer ein gweithlu ni, rŷm ni wedi edrych
ar ba sgiliau yn y Gymraeg sy’n angenrheidiol, ac weithiau,
sgiliau lefel isel ac weithiau sgiliau lefel uchel. Felly,
mae’n flin gen i, nid yw hynny’n ateb eich cwestiwn
chi, achos mae’n rhywbeth nad ŷm ni wedi gallu cael ateb
iddo fe hyd yn hyn ychwaith.
|
Mr Tiplady: Well, I anticipated that
question, and I’m sorry I don’t have a perfect answer
to it, because various people place themselves on different stages
of the continuum. What we have been doing is looking at some skills
in the Welsh language, towards fluency in the Welsh language. We
now have, in preparing towards the language standards, five levels
of positive statements—they’re can-do statements on the
Welsh language—in terms of where people are. We have found
that we’re moving away from this concept of fluency in the
Welsh language, because what happens in trying to attract students
or staff members who can work through the medium of Welsh is that
you actually scare them away. Therefore, trying to define it can be
difficult. What we have done is, rather than trying to define what
a Welsh speaker is for our workforce, we have looked at what skills
are necessary in the Welsh language and, on occasion, they are
low-level skills and on other occasions they are high-level skills.
I’m sorry, that doesn’t answer your question, because
it is something that we haven’t yet found an answer to
ourselves.
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[14]
Bethan Jenkins:
Gwilym. Rwy’n marcio hwn, gyda
llaw—na. [Chwerthin.]
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Bethan
Jenkins: Gwilym. I’m marking this, by the way—no.
[Laughter.]
|
[15]
Mr Jones: Mae’n rhaid bod yna elfen o allu
cyfathrebu a chyflwyno gwasanaeth yn Gymraeg, oherwydd yn y pen
draw, beth rŷm ni am ei weld drwy’r strategaeth yw bod
mwy o Gymry Cymraeg yn defnyddio’r iaith, ac felly
mae’r hyder hynny yn mynd i gynyddu os oes yna staff
sy’n delio â’r cyhoedd sy’n gallu gwneud
hynny yn yr iaith. Felly, mae’n rhaid bod yna elfen o ruglder
i allu cyfathrebu a chynnal sgwrs gychwynnol yn y Gymraeg, dybiwn
i.
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Mr
Jones: There needs to be an element of communication and
offering a service through the medium of Welsh, because ultimately,
what we want to see through this strategy is that more Welsh
speakers use the language and therefore that confidence is going to
increase if there are staff dealing with the public and able to do
so through the medium of Welsh. So, there needs to be an element of
fluency to be able to communicate and hold an initial conversation,
I would say.
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[16]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr. Rŷm ni’n
symud ymlaen at gadw a recriwtio athrawon, ac mae Dai yn mynd i
arwain ar yr adran yma, gyda Dawn yn dod mewn ar ei
ôl.
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Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. We’re going to move on to the
retention and recruitment of teachers, and Dai is going to lead on
this, with Dawn following up.
|
[17]
Dai Lloyd: Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. Diolch am eich
atebion cychwynnol yn fanna. Yn benodol, felly, yn eich rôl
fel prifysgolion sydd, yn naturiol, â chanolfannau
hyfforddiant cychwynnol i athrawon, y cwestiwn gyntaf ydy: a allech
chi ehangu ar rôl eich canolfannau mewnol, felly, a sut ydych
chi’n derbyn cyfarwyddyd ar faint o athrawon sydd eu hangen
ac ym mha bynciau y dylen nhw gael eu hyfforddi?
|
Dai
Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. Thank you for your initial responses
there. Specifically, in your role as universities that have initial
teacher training centres, the first question is: could you expand
upon the role of the ITTCs and how do you take guidance on how many
teachers are required and in which subjects they should be
trained?
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[18]
Mr Tiplady: Wel, gyda ni fel canolfan, rŷm ni’n
gweithio rhwng Prifysgol Fetropolitan Caerdydd a Phrifysgol De
Cymru, ac rŷm ni’n gweithio ar gyrsiau ôl-raddedig
yn darparu hyfforddiant i athrawon uwchradd a chynradd. O ran ein
targedau ni ynglŷn â faint rŷm ni i fod i’w
cael, mae yna dargedau uwch gyda ni ynglŷn â faint
rŷm ni i fod i’w cael yn gyfan gwbl, ond nid oes
targedau gyda ni’n benodol am faint ddylai fod yn astudio
gyda ni drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. I roi’r niferoedd sydd gyda
ni eleni, mae yna 37 gyda ni sy’n astudio naill ai’r
pwnc Cymraeg, uwchradd, neu sy’n astudio i fod yn athrawon
uwchradd drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly, nifer da, rŷm
ni’n teimlo—nifer eithaf sylweddol o ran nifer y
cyrsiau. Ac yn israddedig wedyn, mae 29 gyda ni yn astudio ar gyfer
y cyrsiau cynradd.
|
Mr
Tiplady: Well, as a centre, we work with Cardiff Metropolitan
University and the University of South Wales, and we work on
postgraduate courses, providing training for secondary and primary
teachers. In terms of our targets on how many we need, we have
higher targets on how many we’re supposed to have completely,
but we don’t have specific targets on how many should be
studying with us through the medium of Welsh. To provide you with
the numbers that we have this year, there are 37 studying either
the subject of Welsh at secondary level, or studying to be
secondary school teachers through the medium of Welsh. So, quite a
good figure, we think—quite substantial. And then we have 29
studying on the undergraduate courses at a primary level.
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[19]
Mr Jones: Byddai’n werth imi nodi, efallai, mi
fûm i’n bennaeth y gyfadran addysg ym Mhrifysgol Cymru
y Drindod Dewi Sant, neu Goleg y Drindod fel yr oedd e ar y pryd,
rhwng 1988 a 2013. Ers hynny, nid wyf wedi bod yn ymwneud â
hyfforddi athrawon, ond, yn sicr, mi allaf ddweud, yn gwbl onest,
dros yr 20 mlynedd a rhagor y bues i’n ymwneud
â’r maes hwn, mi oedd niferoedd hyfforddi athrawon,
felly, yn gostwng yn raddol, yn sgil polisïau llywodraethol ac
yn y blaen. Ond o ran y cyfrwng Cymraeg, rŷm ni ni fel
sefydliad yn teimlo’n reit gryf bod hwn nawr yn gyfle
gwirioneddol i’r Llywodraeth ymateb i’r galw, y galw
cynyddol am addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac rŷm ni o’r
farn, drwy’r broses achredu newydd sydd ar y gorwel, fod yna
gyfle euraidd gyda’r broses hon i sicrhau na ddylid achredu
unrhyw gorff i’r dyfodol nad yw’n gallu gwireddu
amcanion y Llywodraeth o ran hyfforddi athrawon cynradd ac athrawon
uwchradd drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
|
Mr
Jones: It would be worth while noting that I was the head of
the education department at the University of Wales Trinity Saint
David or Trinity University College as it was at the time, between
1988 and 2013. But, since then, I haven’t been involved in
teacher training, but, certainly, I can say with some honesty that,
over the 20 years where I was involved in this area, the numbers in
terms of teacher training were declining gradually, in light of
Government policies and so on. But in terms of the Welsh medium, we
as an institution feel quite strongly that this is a very real
opportunity for the Government to respond to the increasing demand
for Welsh-medium education, and we are of the opinion that, through
the new accreditation process that’s in the pipeline, that
there is a golden opportunity through that process to ensure that
no body should be accredited in the future that can’t achieve
the Government’s ambitions in terms of training primary and
secondary teachers through the medium of Welsh.
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[20]
Hyn sydd wrth wraidd strategaeth
newydd y Llywodraeth ym maes y Gymraeg, ac rwy’n meddwl bod
yn rhaid inni dderbyn hynny. Os na chawn ni gyflenwad digonol o
athrawon cynradd ac uwchradd drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, yna wedyn
mae’n mynd i fod yn anodd iawn i wireddu holl amcanion y
strategaeth. Felly, fel sefydliad, rŷm ni’n
teimlo’n gryf bod angen buddsoddiad, bod angen targedau
penodol ar y canolfannau a fydd yn cael eu hachredu i’r
dyfodol, a bod y capasiti yn y canolfannau hynny i ddarparu a
hyfforddi addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, oherwydd os na wnawn ni
hynny, mae’n mynd i fod yn o heriol, felly.
|
This is at the
very heart of the Government’s new strategy in terms of the
Welsh language, and I think we have to accept that, if we
don’t get an adequate supply of primary and secondary
teachers who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh, then
it’s going to be very, very difficult to achieve all of the
objectives of the strategy. So, as an institution, we feel strongly
that we need investment and that we need specific targets for the
accredited centres in the future, and that the capacity should be
in those centres in order to provide and to train for Welsh-medium
education, because if we don’t do that, then it’s going
to be very challenging.
|
[21]
I edrych yn ôl ar y gorffennol,
ar arferion da, pan gychwynnais i ryw 20 mlynedd, 25 mlynedd yn
ôl, mi oedd yna gyrsiau, cyrsiau dwys, yn cael eu cyflwyno ar
gyfer athrawon. Cyn cychwyn eu cwrs, bydden nhw’n dod am
bythefnos o hyfforddiant dwys yn y Gymraeg—athrawon ar y cwrs TAR cynradd a TAR uwchradd.
Rydw i’n meddwl bod yna gyfle i ailedrych ar hynny fel un
ffordd o ddenu rhagor o Gymry Cymraeg—y Cymry Cymraeg hynny
sydd ychydig bach yn betrus; y rheini sydd efallai ddim wedi
ystyried mynd i addysgu yn Gymraeg. Hynny yw, eu bod nhw’n
siaradwyr Cymraeg ond heb ystyried mynd i addysgu trwy gyfrwng y
Gymraeg. Yn sicr, rhyw 20 mlynedd yn ôl, mi roedd y system
honno’n ennill siaradwyr Cymraeg i’r gorlan er mwyn
sicrhau eu bod nhw, ar ddiwedd y cwrs, yn cael eu cymhwyso i
addysgu yn y Saesneg neu’r Gymraeg.
|
In looking to
the past, at good practice in the past, when I started some 20 or
25 years ago, there were intensive courses that were provided for
teachers. Before they started their actual course, they would come
for a fortnight of intensive Welsh training—teachers on the
secondary and primary PGCE course. I think there’s an
opportunity to look at that anew as one way of attracting more
Welsh speakers—those Welsh speakers who are a little
reticent; those who perhaps haven’t considered going into
teaching in the Welsh-medium sector. That is, they’re Welsh
speakers, but they haven’t considered the Welsh-medium sector
as a career. Certainly, some 20 years ago, that system drew in
Welsh speakers to ensure that, at the end of the course, they were
qualified to teach both through the medium of English and
Welsh.
|
[22]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Mae gan Dawn gwestiwn clou ar
hwn yn benodol.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. Dawn has a quick question on this
specifically.
|
[23]
Dawn Bowden: I just have a quick question, if I may, around
the issue of teacher training. Am I interpreting what you’re
saying correctly in that you feel that there should be an element
of compulsion in terms of study of the Welsh language if somebody
wishes to teach in Wales?
|
[24]
Mr Jones: Dyna ein barn ni fel sefydliad. Ar gyfer y Cymry
Cymraeg, mae angen eu trwytho nhw a rhoi’r hyder yna iddyn
nhw i ddysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Ond wedyn, ar gyfer y rhai
di-Gymraeg neu prin eu Cymraeg, mae’n rhaid, rhywsut, o fewn
y cwrs, cyn y cwrs, ar ôl y cwrs, sicrhau eu bod nhw’n
cael eu cyflwyno i’r Gymraeg, hanes y Gymraeg a hanes dwyieithrwydd yng Nghymru,
fel eu bod nhw’n deall y cyd-destun dwyieithog y mae’r
Llywodraeth yn ceisio ei ddatblygu a’i annog o fewn y
strategaeth. Ydw, mi ydw i.
|
Mr
Jones: That’s our view as an institution. For the Welsh
speakers, there is a need to immerse them and give them the
confidence to teach through the medium of Welsh. But then, for
those who don’t speak Welsh or don’t have too much
Welsh, there needs to be a way before the course, during the
course, after the course, to ensure that they’re introduced
to the Welsh language, the history of the language and the history
of bilingualism in Wales, so that they understand the bilingual
context that the Government is trying to develop and encourage
within the strategy. So, yes, I do.
|
[25]
Dawn Bowden: Okay. That I understand. To follow on from
that, this is an issue for Government, I appreciate, but I would
welcome your views on that, because there is a different
entry-level standard for teaching in Wales compared to England. I
have an example of a member of my own family, a fluent Welsh
speaker, who couldn’t get into teacher training college in
Wales and is now teaching in England, because of the minimum entry
standards. He didn’t have a B in maths, even though
he’s not teaching maths. So, do you have view on that,
because there is a danger that we are losing Welsh speakers in the
profession to England?
|
[26]
Mr Tiplady: Fy hunan, rwy’n cytuno â chi.
Mae’n rhywbeth mae ein staff ni’n codi’n
rheolaidd, sef bod pobl maen nhw’n amlwg yn cwrdd â
nhw, yn eu cyfweld, a fyddai’n athrawon da iawn, ond achos
bod y lefelau yna’n uwch, maen nhw’n eu colli
nhw. Mae yna sgyrsiau mewnol
wedi bod ynglŷn â’r ffaith y gallech chi asesu ar
ddiwedd y cyfnod, fel bod cyfle gyda nhw i gael y cymhwyster
angenrheidiol erbyn diwedd eu cyfnod nhw fel athrawon yn hytrach na
rhoi rhywbeth ar y dechrau. Nid ymateb y sefydliad rwy’n
gallu ei roi i hynny, mae’n flin gennyf i, ond fe allaf roi
fy ymateb personol a’r ymateb rwyf wedi ei dderbyn oddi wrth
y staff, ein bod ni wedi colli mas ar rai athrawon da iawn oherwydd
yn gwmws yr esiampl rŷch chi wedi’i rhoi.
|
Mr
Tiplady: Personally, I agree with you. This is something raised
regularly by our staff, that there are people who they obviously
meet and interview who would make very good teachers, but because
those levels are higher, they are lost to the system. There have
been some internal discussions around the fact that you could
assess at the end of the training period, so that they have that
opportunity to gain the necessary qualification by the end of their
teacher training, rather than assessing at the beginning. I
can’t give a response as the institution, I’m afraid,
but I can give my personal response and the response that
I’ve heard from staff, that we have lost some very good
teachers because of the very example that you’ve given.
|
[27]
Bethan Jenkins: Dai. Diolch.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Dai, thank you.
|
[28]
Dai Lloyd: Ie, diolch, Gadeirydd. Jest i symud ymlaen
ychydig bach, a allech chi jest olrhain beth yw’r heriau
presennol ynglŷn ag ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg a’r sector
addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn naturiol? I fynd yn ôl, y bwriad,
yn naturiol, ydy cael y 1 miliwn o siaradwyr yma.
Rŷch chi wedi rhyw led gyfeirio
eisoes eich bod yn disgwyl, fel canolfannau hyfforddiant, derbyn
rhyw dargedau ynglŷn â nifer yr athrawon y dylech
ddisgwyl eu hyfforddi; ddim jest ei adael o i fyny i chi a faint
ŷch chi’n gallu eu denu, ac ati. Ond, yng nghyd-destun
hynny, a’r angen yma i gael targedau, a allwch chi olrhain,
mewn ychydig bach mwy o ddyfnder, yr heriau presennol yn y sector
addysg Gymraeg, a hefyd wrth symud ymlaen? Wrth gwrs, mae’r
rhan fwyaf o’r twf yma i 1 miliwn o siaradwyr yn mynd i
ddigwydd achos bod gennym ni sector addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg,
felly.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Yes, thank you, Chair. Just to move on a little, could
you just outline what are the current challenges facing
Welsh-medium schools and the Welsh-medium education sector
naturally? Going back, the intention is to reach 1 million Welsh
speakers. You have sort of referred already to the fact that you
expect, as training centres, to receive targets with regard to the
numbers of teachers you should expect to train; that it won’t
just be left up to you and how many you could attract, and so
on. But, in that context and this need to have targets, could
you set out in some depth the current challenges in the
Welsh-medium education sector, and also in moving on? Of course,
most of this growth towards the 1 million Welsh speakers will
happen because we have a Welsh-medium education sector.
|
[29]
Mr Tiplady: A allaf i ddechrau? Diolch yn fawr ichi. Mae yna
niferoedd da gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, achos mae yna arian ar gael i
hyfforddi trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae’n gyfle gwych i
bobl—mae’n swydd dda iawn i fod yn athro. Y
‘package’ yw’r gair Cymraeg roeddwn
i’n trio edrych amdano, ond yn ffaelu ffeindio fe.
Mae’r package yn un da. Felly, yr her rwyf i’n teimlo sydd gennym ni ar
hyn o bryd, wrth gwrs, yw bod niferoedd eithaf da gennym ni ac
mae’n rhaid sicrhau bod ysgolion partner gennym sydd
o’r safon angenrheidiol, ac rydym ni’n hapus iawn ac yn
ffodus iawn gyda’r ysgolion sy’n gweithio gyda ni. Os
ŷm ni’n mynd i gynyddu’n sylweddol o le rŷm
ni nawr, pwy yw’r farchnad o fyfyrwyr rŷm ni’n
mynd i’w denu? Sut ydym yn mynd i ddod atyn nhw i ddysgu trwy
gyfrwng y Gymraeg? Ac, a fydd yna ddigon o ysgolion i
gefnogi’r ddarpariaeth yna i sicrhau lleoliad iddyn
nhw?
|
Mr
Tiplady: If I could start, thank you. We do have good numbers
at the moment, because there is funding available for training
through the medium of Welsh. It’s an excellent
opportunity—teaching is a good job. ‘Package’ is
the word I was looking for in Welsh, but couldn’t find. The
package is a good one. So, the challenge that I feel we have at the
moment is that we have relatively good numbers and we need to
ensure that we have partner schools that are of the necessary
standard, and we are very happy and fortunate with the schools that
we work with. If we are going to significantly increase the numbers
from where we are now, well, who are the students we’re going
to attract? How are we going to approach them to attract them teach
through the medium of Welsh? And, will there be a sufficient number
of schools available to support that provision, so that they have
teacher training placements?
|
[30]
Rwy’n cytuno 100 y cant â
beth ddywedodd Gwilym. Os ydym yn mynd i gynyddu, mae’n rhaid
inni ddenu’r darpar fyfyrwyr hynny sydd ddim yn
teimlo’n ddigon hyderus yn eu sgiliau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg
a chodi’u sgiliau nhw drwy nifer o wahanol ffyrdd.
Dyna un o’r pethau mawr, yr
heriau mawr, rwy’n teimlo, sydd eisiau i ni edrych
arnynt.
|
I agree 100 per
cent with what Gwilym said. If we are going to increase the
numbers, we have to attract those prospective students who
currently don’t have enough confidence in their Welsh
language skills and improve their skills in a number of different
ways. That’s one of the major challenges that I think we
face.
|
09:30
|
[31]
Mr Jones: Os gallaf gyfeirio at un maes ychydig bach yn
wahanol, sef maes, ar hyn o bryd, sy’n cael ei alw’n
‘Gymraeg ail iaith’, a sut rydym yn mynd i
gyflwyno’r Gymraeg i siaradwyr di-Gymraeg ar hyn o bryd.
Rwy’n meddwl bod yna her wirioneddol i ni fel cenedl ar hyn o
bryd i ddenu rhagor o raddedigion y Gymraeg, ac i ddechrau cael
rhagor o bobl i astudio Cymraeg fel maes, fel pwnc academaidd yn y
brifysgol, a’u perswadio, neu o leiaf eu hannog nhw, i
ystyried gyrfa fel athrawon. Oherwydd os nad oes digon yn
astudio’r Gymraeg, i ddechrau ar lefel A felly mewn ysgol, a
mynd ymlaen wedyn i astudio’r Gymraeg yn y brifysgol, yna
mae’r pool hwnnw yn pool bychan iawn, iawn. Ac
os ydym am weld gwerth ac effaith y strategaeth newydd, mae’n
rhaid cael criw sylweddol iawn o athrawon Cymraeg sy’n medru
dysgu’r Cymry Cymraeg a’r rhai di-Gymraeg. Ac, ar hyn o
bryd, mae gen i bryder gwirioneddol nad ŷm ni yn llwyddo i
ddenu digon i’r maes hwnnw, oherwydd, yn y pen draw,
mae’n rhaid wrth athrawon ysbrydoledig, sydd yn mynd i annog
ein pobl ifanc ni i barhau â’u hastudiaethau yn
Gymraeg, a theimlo balchder yn yr iaith ac yn nwyieithrwydd ein
cenedl ni yn gyffredinol. Felly, mae hwnnw’n un
maes.
|
Mr
Jones: If I can just refer to an area that’s a little bit
different, an area that’s called ‘Welsh as a second
language’ at the moment, and how we’re going to
introduce Welsh to non-Welsh speakers at the moment. I think there
is a real challenge for us as a nation there, to attract more Welsh
graduates, and to begin to have more people studying Welsh as an
academic subject at university level, and persuade them, or at
least encourage them, to consider a career as a teacher. If there
aren’t enough people studying Welsh, initially at A-level in
school, and then going on to study Welsh at university level, then
that pool is a very, very small pool. And if we want to see value
and impact from this new strategy, there is a need for a
significant number of Welsh teachers who can teach Welsh speakers
and those who don’t speak Welsh. And, at the moment, I have
real concern that we’re not succeeding in attracting enough
to that area, because, ultimately, there is a need for
inspirational teachers, who are going to encourage our young people
to continue with their studies through the medium of Welsh, and
feel pride in the language and in the bilingualism of our nation in
general. So, that’s one area.
|
[32]
Rwyf am fynd yn ôl hefyd at
beth ddywedodd Daniel o ran marchnata. Anghofier y Gymraeg am
eiliad, mae marchnata’r proffesiwn addysgu yn rhywbeth y mae
angen rhoi sylw dybryd iddo fe yma yng Nghymru, a chodi statws y
proffesiwn, oherwydd mae’n broffesiwn gwerthfawr dros ben.
Mae’n broffesiwn sydd yn effeithio ar filoedd o unigolion, ac
os na chawn ni hwn yn iawn, yna gallai unrhyw strategaeth ddiflannu
dros nos mewn gwirionedd.
|
I want to go
back to something Daniel said about marketing. Forget about the
Welsh language for a minute—marketing the teaching profession
is something that needs attention in Wales, and there’s a
need to raise the status of the profession in Wales, because it is
a very valuable profession. It’s a profession that has an
impact on thousands of individuals, and if we don’t get this
right, then any sort of strategy could disappear overnight.
|
[33]
Dai Lloyd: Yn dilyn o’ch pwynt olaf chi, a dweud y
gwir, dyma’r cwestiwn olaf sydd gen i. Ar ôl i bobl
dderbyn hyfforddiant bendigedig i fod yn athrawon yn eich
prifysgolion chi, mae yna, wrth gwrs, yn naturiol, bwysau i aros
yng Nghymru wedyn. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae yna her sylweddol mewn rhai
ardaloedd yng Nghymru i recriwtio athrawon cyfrwng Cymraeg yn y lle
cyntaf, ac wedyn i’w cadw nhw, am wahanol resymau. Rydym i
gyd efallai yn tueddu i fyw mewn dinasoedd y dyddiau hyn, er
enghraifft. Ond, o’ch ochr chi, felly, beth fyddech yn gweld
fel y ffordd orau o fynd i’r afael efo’r fath her yna?
Wedi i ni eu cael nhw a’u hyfforddi nhw, sut wedyn mae eu
cadw nhw yma yng Nghymru, fel athrawon Cymraeg yma yng
Nghymru?
|
Dai
Lloyd: Following on from your final point, this is my final
question. Once people have received wonderful training to become
teachers at your universities, there is, of course, pressure to
remain in Wales. And, of course, there is a significant challenge
in some areas of Wales to recruit Welsh-medium teachers initially,
and then to retain them, for all sorts of various reasons. We all
tend to choose to live in cities these days, for example. So, from
your point of view, what would you see as the best ways of tackling
those challenges? Once we’ve actually attracted them and
trained them, how do we retain them in Wales, as Welsh teachers, or
teachers through the medium of Welsh, here in Wales?
|
[34]
Mr Jones: Mae’n un dasg i’w cadw nhw yng
Nghymru. Y dasg arall yw cadw athrawon yn y dosbarth, full
stop felly. Fel rhywun sydd ag aelodau o’r teulu yn
athrawon, ac wedi bod ers blynyddoedd lawer, nid oes rhaid i fi
ddweud rhagor wrthych chi. Mae’n broffesiwn heriol, ond
mae’n broffesiwn sy’n rhoi budd a gwerth personol
hefyd. Felly, rwy’n meddwl bod angen i’r Llywodraeth yn
gyffredinol edrych ar amodau gwaith athrawon, boed yn Gymraeg
neu’n Saesneg. Ond, wrth ganolbwyntio ar y Gymraeg am eiliad,
rwy’n meddwl bod yn rhaid i ni werthu’r proffesiwn ar
gyfer ein pobl ifanc ni fel gyrfa sy’n mynd i wneud
gwahaniaeth i Gymru—gyrfa lle gallan nhw fel unigolion wneud
gwahaniaeth i blant a phobl ifanc, ond hefyd i greu’r Gymru
ddwyieithog, hyderus yma rydym i gyd am ei gweld.
|
Mr
Jones: One task is to keep them in Wales, but another task is
to keep teachers in the classroom full stop. As somebody who has
family members who are teachers, and who have been for many years,
I don’t have to say any more. It’s a challenging
profession, but it’s a profession that does provide benefits
and self-worth as well. So, I think that the Government in general
has to look at the terms and conditions of teachers, whether in
English or Welsh. But, in concentrating on the Welsh language for a
moment, I think we have to sell the profession to our young people
as a career that is going to make a difference to Wales—a
career where they as individuals can make a difference to children
and young people, but also in creating this bilingual, confident
Wales that we all want to see.
|
[35]
Ac felly rwy’n meddwl, i fynd
yn ôl at farchnata eto, fod angen i ni ailedrych ar sut rydym
yn marchnata’r proffesiwn. A rwy’n meddwl bydd hynny, o
godi statws y proffesiwn, yn fodd o gadw mwy o athrawon, a mwy o
athrawon yng Nghymru yn y pen draw.
|
And, I think,
to go back to marketing again, there is a need for us to look again
at how we market the profession. And I think that, in raising the
status of the profession, will be a means of retaining more
teachers, and more teachers in Wales, ultimately.
|
[36]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Mae gan Dawn gwestiynau nawr
ynglŷn â chynorthwywyr addysgu.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thanks. Dawn has questions now about teaching
assistants.
|
[37]
Dawn Bowden: Thank you. It may be that this is not an
appropriate question for you, actually. We’ve got the
Education Workforce Council coming in afterwards and it may be more
appropriate for them. But, we did hear evidence last week from the
unions, the teaching unions in particular, about the role of
teaching assistants and support staff, and the role that they may
have, particularly in early years and one-to-one support in the
classrooms. Do you have a view about the role of teaching
assistants and support staff in schools, in terms of helping us to
get towards the ultimate objective of 1 million speakers?
|
[38]
Mr Tiplady: Nid yn rhinwedd fy swydd ym Met Caerdydd, ond
rwyf hefyd yn gadeirydd llywodraethwyr Ysgol Pencae yn Llandaf, ac
rydym yn gwybod bod y cynorthwywyr dysgu yn hollol hanfodol
i’r gwaith rydym yn ei wneud fel ysgol. Ni fyddem yn llwyddo
heb y cynorthwywyr dysgu yna. Felly, unrhyw beth y gallwn ni ei
wneud i gefnogi, i ddatblygu, i ehangu’r maes yna, byddwn i
yn cytuno â fe 100 y cant, achos maen nhw’n gwneud
gwaith gwych.
|
Mr
Tiplady: Not in light of my role at Cardiff Met, but I’m
also chair of governors at Ysgol Pencae in Llandaff, and we know
that the teaching assistants are crucial to the work that we do as
a school. We wouldn’t succeed without those teaching
assistants. So, anything that we can do to support, develop and
expand that area, I would agree with 100 per cent, because they do
wonderful work.
|
[39]
Mr Jones: A gaf gyfeirio at dri chynllun rydym ni fel
prifysgol wedi bod yn rhan ohonyn nhw? Yn gyntaf, roedd cynllun
Geiriau Bach a oedd yn cael ei gyflwyno dan nawdd Llywodraeth Cymru
drwy’r Drindod Dewi Sant, ar draws Cymru, rhyw bedair neu bum
mlynedd yn ôl, lle roedd yna rai cannoedd o gynorthwywyr
dysgu yn cael eu noddi gan y Llywodraeth i ddilyn cwrs—cwrs
lefel 6, os rwyf yn cofio’n iawn—a oedd yn eu paratoi
nhw ar gyfer cyflwyno’r Gymraeg mewn cyd-destun dwyieithog.
Roedd rhai yn siaradwyr Cymraeg a rhai nad oedden nhw yn siarad
Gymraeg. Mi oedd hwnnw yn gwrs hynod, hynod o lwyddiannus yn
ôl yr adborth a dderbyniwyd. Fe dorrwyd y cyllid ac fe orffennodd y cwrs hwnnw, ond
mi roedd hwnnw yn llwyddiannus iawn.
|
Mr Jones: May I refer you to three
schemes that, as a university, we’ve been part of? First,
there was a scheme called Geiriau Bach, which was introduced under
the sponsorship of Welsh Government through Trinity Saint David,
across Wales, about four or five years ago, where hundreds of
teaching assistants were sponsored by the Government to follow a
course—a level 6 course, if I remember rightly—which
prepared them for introducing the Welsh language in a bilingual
context. Some were Welsh speakers and others didn’t speak
Welsh. That was an extremely successful course according to the
feedback that was received. Funding was cut, and that course came
to an end, but that was very successful.
|
[40]
A gaf i hefyd
gyfeirio—
|
May I also
refer—
|
[41]
Bethan Jenkins:
Pam gafodd y cyllid ei
dorri?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Why was the funding cut?
|
[42]
Mr Jones: Daeth y cytundeb i ben—
|
Mr
Jones: The contract came to an end.
|
[43]
Bethan Jenkins:
Jest wnaeth e ddod i ben.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: It just came to an end.
|
[44]
Mr Jones: Do, daeth y cytundeb i ben ac wedyn fe
ddiflannodd y rhaglen, fel petai. Ond fe hyfforddwyd rhyw 300 neu
400 o gynorthwywyr dysgu ar draws Cymru i gyd.
|
Mr
Jones: Yes, the contract came to an end and then the scheme
disappeared, so to speak. But about 300 or 400 teaching assistants
across Wales were trained.
|
[45]
Yn ail, wedyn, eto fel prifysgol
rydym yn cynnig gradd sylfaen—cwrs dwy flynedd—ar gyfer
cynorthwywyr dysgu ar draws de-orllewin Cymru a chanolbarth Cymru.
Mae rhai o’n staff ni yn addysgu mor bell â’r
Trallwng, y Drenewydd, sir Benfro, Aberystwyth a Chaerfyrddin, ac
yn y blaen, lle rydym ni yn cyflwyno y cynorthwywyr dysgu yma i
faterion yn ymwneud ag addysg, ac addysg gynhwysol yn benodol.
Rydym ni wedi cynnig llwybr iddyn nhw wedyn i raddio drwy astudio
am flwyddyn ychwanegol yn y brifysgol. Beth sydd wedi bod yn
wirioneddol wych yw gweld rhai o’r cynorthwywyr dysgu yma yn
dilyn y llwybr yma ac yn graddio, ac yn mynd ymlaen i wneud cwrs
TAR cynradd, ac yn mynd ymlaen i fod yn athrawon. Mae gweld y rhain
yn dilyn y llwybr hwnnw ac yn cyrraedd eu nod o fod yn athrawon yn
rhywbeth go arbennig. Felly, mae hwnnw’n amlwg wedi
gweithio.
|
Secondly, again
as a university we offer a foundation degree—a two-year
course—for teaching assistants across south-west Wales and
mid Wales. Some of our staff teach as far away as Welshpool,
Newtown, Pembrokeshire, Aberystwyth and Carmarthen, and so forth,
where we introduce these teaching assistants to issues relating to
education, and inclusive education specifically. We’ve
offered them a pathway then to graduate by studying for an extra
year at the university. What has been wonderful is seeing some of
these teaching assistants following this pathway and graduating,
and going on to do a PGCE primary course and becoming teachers. To
see them following this pathway and reaching their aim of becoming
teachers is something quite special. So, that clearly has
worked.
|
[46]
A’r drydedd raglen rwyf am
gyfeirio ati yw’r cwrs sabothol. Mae’r Drindod Dewi Sant yn arwain y maes hwn o
safbwynt cyrsiau sabothol ar gyfer cynorthwywyr dysgu, a chredwch
chi fi, mae’r cwrs hwnnw yn gweithio. Mae’r adborth y
tu hwnt o ffafriol gan athrawon a’r cynorthwywyr dysgu. Yr
hyn sy’n bwysig fanna yw, unwaith eu bod nhw’n gorffen
y cwrs, maen nhw’n mynd nôl i’r ystafell
ddosbarth lle maen nhw’n llawer mwy hyderus yn
cyflwyno’r Gymraeg ac yn cefnogi’r athrawon yn Gymraeg
mewn cyd-destun dwyieithog, ond bod yna ôl-ofalaeth; hynny
yw, bod yr ysgolion ar ôl eu cefnogi nhw yn sicrhau bod yr
isadeiledd yno i’w cefnogi nhw ymhellach yn ôl yn y
dosbarth. Efallai mai dyna lle mae angen gweithio ymhellach ar y
cwrs hwnnw ar hyn o bryd. Ond mae nifer o gyfleoedd lle rydym ni
fel prifysgol wedi bod yn rhan ohonyn nhw i ymateb i’r
pwyslais cynyddol sydd ar rôl y cynorthwyydd dosbarth yn yr
ystafell ddosbarth.
|
And the third
scheme I want to refer to is the sabbatical course. Trinity St
David is leading in this field of sabbatical courses for teaching
assistants, and believe you me, that course works. The feedback is
very favourable from teachers and the teaching assistants.
What’s important there is that once they complete the course,
they go back to the classroom where they’re much more
confident in introducing Welsh and supporting the teachers through
the medium of Welsh in a bilingual context, but that there is
aftercare; that is, that the schools ensure that the infrastructure
is there to support them further back in the classroom. Perhaps
that’s where there is a need for more work on that course at
the moment. But there are a number of opportunities where, as a
university, we’ve been part of them to respond to this
increasing emphasis on the role of teaching assistants in the
classroom.
|
[47]
Dawn Bowden: And what—. Sorry, Chair; just one more
question. What’s been the experience in the schools? Have the
teaching assistants and support staff been released from their
duties during working time to do this course, because that’s
one of the barriers of course?
|
[48]
Mr Jones: Dyna chi. Mae’r brifysgol yn gweithio gyda’r awdurdod lleol
i adnabod unigolion y tybir y byddan nhw’n elwa’n
sylweddol o ddarpariaeth o’r fath. Maen nhw’n cael eu
rhyddhau gan yr ysgol, ac yna mae’r Llywodraeth wedyn, yn
ôl beth rwy’n ddeall, yn talu am arian cyflenwi i
sicrhau bod yna gyflenwi yn y dosbarth tra bod y person yna i
ffwrdd am dri mis, rwy’n meddwl.
|
Mr
Jones: That’s right. The university works with the local
authority to identify individuals who it’s believed would
benefit significantly from such provision. They are released by the
school, and then the Government, as I understand it, pays for
backfilling or supply provision in order to ensure that there are
supply teachers whilst that person is away for some three months, I
believe.
|
[49]
Bethan Jenkins:
Daniel, a ydych chi eisiau dod mewn
ar hynny?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Daniel, did you want to come in there?
|
[50]
Mr Tiplady: Os ydym ni yn edrych i farchnata addysgu a
phwysigrwydd athrawon, elfen gref o hynny ddylai fod marchnata
pwysigrwydd cynorthwywyr dysgu, achos maen nhw’n hollbwysig i
beth mae’r athrawon yn gallu ei gyflawni, a hebddyn nhw
fyddai hynny ddim yn bosibl.
|
Mr
Tiplady: If we’re looking to market teaching and the
importance of teachers, then an important element of that is to
market the importance of teaching assistants, because they are
crucial to what the teachers can deliver, and without them it
simply wouldn’t be possible.
|
[51]
Un o’r problemau sydd ar hyn o
bryd yw bod nhw’n cael eu gweld o bosibl fel swyddi statws yn
is. Er enghraifft, yn y destination of leavers from
higher education survey, lle
rydym ni’n edrych fel prifysgolion ar ble mae’n
graddedigion ni yn mynd, nid yw swydd cynorthwyydd dysgu yn cael ei
hystyried fel swydd lefel graddedigion. Mae’n cael ei
hystyried yn swydd lefel is, er eu bod nhw’n hollbwysig i
lwyddiant ysgolion. Felly, mae eisiau edrych ar statws y rôl
wrth farchnata’r peth yn gyffredinol, a marchnata eu
pwysigrwydd nhw.
|
One of the
problems that exists at the moment is that they are possibly seen
as lower status roles. For example, in the destinations of leavers
from higher education survey, which is what we look at as
universities in terms of where our graduates go, a teaching
assistant post isn’t considered to be a graduate level post.
It’s seen as a lower level post, although they are crucially
important to the success of schools. So, we need to look at the
status of the role in marketing more generally, and marketing the
importance of that role.
|
[52]
Dawn Bowden: And the
registration—[Inaudible.]
|
[53]
Mr Tiplady: Yes. Definitely.
|
[54]
Dawn Bowden: Okay, thank you.
|
[55]
Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr. Hannah.
|
[56]
Hannah Blythyn: We talked about the need to recruit more
people to be able to teach through the medium of Welsh, but in the
short to medium term we’re probably going to be looking at
needing to upskill the teachers we already have to enable them to
be more confident to teach through the medium of Welsh. In your
view, what capacity is there within the sector to upskill, and what
do you see the challenges are in doing that?
|
[57]
Mr Tiplady: Gyda ni, rŷm ni’n cynnig, mae cynllun
colegau yn rhedeg, sef bod pob person sy’n astudio addysg
gyda ni—hyfforddiant cychwynnol athrawon—yn gorfod
gwneud elfen o’r Gymraeg. Mae 85 y cant o’n myfyrwyr ni
yn dod o Gymru, felly, mae gyda nhw TGAU, neu hanner TGAU neu TGAU
ail iaith—mae rhywbeth gyda nhw yn barod. Felly, rydym
ni’n gweithio gyda nhw er mwyn sicrhau bod y Gymraeg
achlysurol gyda nhw iddyn nhw allu defnyddio: ‘bore
da’—good morning—a’r lliwiau ac yn y
blaen, ac yn y blaen. Felly, rydym ni yn sicrhau fod yna waelodlin
yna. Rwyf fi fy hun yn teimlo fod y garfan hon yn un hollbwysig, os
ydym ni’n mynd i drio cyrraedd ein targed ni i godi sgil a
safon Cymraeg y rhain.
|
Mr
Tiplady: With us, we offer a scheme that colleges run, that
everybody who studies education—initial teacher
training—with us has to do an element of Welsh. Eighty five
per cent of our students come from Wales, so they have a GCSE or
half a GCSE or second-language GCSE—they have something
already. So, we work with them in order to ensure that they have
incidental Welsh that they can use: ‘bore
da’—good morning—and the colours and so on.
So, we ensure that there is a baseline there. Myself, I think that
this cohort is vital if we’re going to try to reach our
target to upskill and improve the standard of these people’s
Welsh.
|
[58]
Mae hwnnw’n rhywbeth heriol,
achos mae’r flwyddyn o’r cyrsiau TAR yn flwyddyn hir,
anodd a llawn ac felly mae unrhyw beth ychwanegol sydd yn mynd i
fod yn y flwyddyn hynny yn mynd i fod yn rhywbeth anodd. Felly,
rwy’n credu bod eisiau inni edrych ar gynlluniau fel y
cynlluniau sabothol, ac fel y cynlluniau ychwanegol ar ben hynny,
er mwyn codi sgiliau pobl, achos mae yna lefel o sgil yna, wrth
iddyn nhw ein cyrraedd ni—TGAU ail iaith neu TGAU sydd yna.
Rŷm ni’n cynyddu’r rheini hyd at ryw bwynt,
ond dim digon fel eu bod nhw’n gallu weithio trwy gyfrwng y
Gymraeg. Felly, mae fe’n un o’r heriau mawr sydd gyda
ni.
|
That is
challenging, because the year of PGCE courses is a difficult, long
and full year and so anything that’s additional in that year
is going to be difficult. So, I think we need to look at schemes
like the sabbatical schemes, and like the additional schemes on top
of that, in order to upskill people, because there is a level of
skill there, when they reach us—they have second-language
GCSE or GCSE. We’re increasing those skills up to a certain
point, but not sufficiently for them to be able to work through the
medium of Welsh. So, it is one of the great challenges that we
have.
|
[59]
Mr Jones: I fynd yn ôl at un o’r cwestiynau
blaenorol, mae angen sicrhau bod pob un myfyriwr sydd wedi ei
hyfforddi yng Nghymru i fod yn athro neu’n athrawes yn cael
dealltwriaeth o’r Gymraeg, ond hefyd yn cael cyfle
gwirioneddol i ddysgu’r Gymraeg at ryw lefel, boed cynradd
neu uwchradd. Yr unig ffordd rydym ni’n mynd i wneud hynny yw
sicrhau, o fewn y cwricwlwm newydd—pan fyddem ni yn ymateb i
Donaldson a’i adroddiad—bod y cwricwlwm newydd yng
Nghymru yn adlewyrchu’r Gymru rydym ni’n deisyfu yn y
strategaeth. Hwn yw’r
cyfle mawr ac felly o fewn rhaglen waith hyfforddi cynradd ac
uwchradd, mae angen lle canolog i’r Gymraeg, boed ar gyfer
Cymry Cymraeg sy’n siarad Cymraeg yn rhugl, y dysgwyr da,
neu’r rheini sydd heb unrhyw syniadaeth am y Gymraeg, fel bod
pawb yn cael cyfle i berchnogi’r iaith a chymryd balchder yn
yr iaith Gymraeg. Dyna’r pwynt gyntaf, yn sicr.
|
Mr
Jones: To return to a previous question, we need to ensure that
every student trained in Wales to become a teacher has an
understanding of the Welsh language, but also a real opportunity to
learn the language to some level, be that primary or secondary. The
only way we can do that is to ensure that, within the new
curriculum—when we respond to the Donaldson report—the
new curriculum in Wales reflects the Wales that we are aspiring
towards in the strategy. This is the major opportunity and so,
within the work programme for primary and secondary training, the
Welsh language needs a central role, be that for fluent Welsh
speakers, confident learners, or those who have no concept of the
Welsh language, so that everyone can take ownership of the Welsh
language and take pride in the Welsh language. That’s the
first point, certainly.
|
[60]
Yr ail bwynt wedyn: rwyf am fynd yn
ôl at y cynllun sabothol. Dyma i chi gynllun; mae’n
gynllun drud, mae’n gynllun uchelgeisiol, ond mae’n
gynllun sy’n gweithio. Hoffwn i eich bod chi, fel pwyllgor,
yn edrych ar yr impact y mae’r cynllun sabothol yma yn ei
gael ar athrawon a chynorthwywyr dysgu. Rydw i’n meddwl ei
fod yn gyfle i’r Llywodraeth i ystyried datblygu hwn
ymhellach, nid yn unig ar gyfer athrawon, ond ar gyfer meysydd
eraill sy’n ymwneud â’r strategaeth. Nid ydych
chi efallai am gyffwrdd â nhw heddiw, ond rydych chi yn
sôn am iechyd a gofal a maes hamdden ac yn y blaen
hefyd.
|
The second
point then: I want to return to the sabbatical scheme. This is an
expensive programme, it is an ambitious programme, but it is a
programme that works. I would like you, as a committee, to look at
the impact that the sabbatical programme has on teachers and
teaching assistants. I think there’s an opportunity for the
Government to develop this further, not only for teachers, but also
in others areas related to the strategy. You may not want to touch
upon them today, but you’re talking about health and care and
leisure and so on and so forth too.
|
[61]
Yr unig ffordd y mae rhywun yn mynd i
ddysgu’r iaith yw trwy gael dwyster yn y dysgu, dwyster
profiad ac yna cyfle wedyn i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg yn y
gweithle gyda chefnogaeth y cyflogwr yn y pendraw. Felly, mae
hynny’n rhywbeth yr wyf i’n credu’n gryf iawn,
iawn. Mae’r cynllun yn gweithio ac mae cyfle gwirioneddol
i’w ddatblygu ymhellach gyda buddsoddiad pellach
hefyd.
|
The only way
one is going to learn the language is to have an intensity of
learning, of experience and then an opportunity to use the Welsh
language in the workplace with the support of the employer
ultimately. So, that is something that I believe very, very
strongly in. The scheme works and there is a real opportunity to
develop it further, with further investment as well.
|
[62]
Mr Tiplady: Rwy’n cytuno 100 y cant â Gwilym yn
fanna. Yr amser, wrth gwrs, yw’r peth. O ble mae’r
amser yn dod? Sut y mae pobl yn cael eu rhyddhau i
ddefnyddio’r amser yna? Ond rwy’n cytuno. Heb rywbeth
o’r fath, allem ni ddim cael y cynnydd sylweddol sydd ei
eisiau. Ond y tu fewn i’r flwyddyn sydd gyda ni’n
barod—os oes lle yna; nid wyf yn credu fy hunain bod
yna—mae’n rhaid edrych ar sut y gallem ni rhyddhau
staff a sut y gallem ni annog pobl i fynd ar hyd y trywydd yna.
Rwy’n credu bod hwnnw’n hollbwysig wrth edrych i
gynllunio ar gyfer rhywbeth fel y cynllun sabothol.
|
Mr
Tiplady: I agree 100 per cent with Gwilym there, but time, of
course, is the thing. Where is the time going to come from? How are
people going to be released to use that time? But I agree. Without
such a scheme, we can’t see the significant increase that is
needed. But within the year that we have already—if there is
room there; I don’t think personally that there is—we
need to look at how we are going to release staff and how
we’re going to encourage them to follow that route. I think
that’s vital as we look at planning for something like the
sabbatical scheme.
|
[63]
Mr Jones: Gadeirydd, os gallaf godi un pwynt arall: fel
sefydliad sydd wedi bod ynghlwm â sefydlu’r Ganolfan
Dysgu Cymraeg Cenedlaethol yn ddiweddar, rwyf yn teimlo fod lle
i’r ganolfan hon yn awr, sydd yn arwain maes Cymraeg i
oedolion, i ymgysylltu ei hun â’r holl weithgarwch
sy’n digwydd yn yr ysgolion uwchradd ac yn y blaen fel bod
dilyniant a chyfleon i’r athrawon hefyd ystyried cyrsiau
dysgu o bell ac yn y blaen drwy’r ganolfan newydd hon.
Rwy’n ymwybodol bod y ganolfan yn edrych ar sawl ffordd
wahanol o gyflwyno’r Gymraeg i’r gweithle yn y dyfodol
ac felly bydd cyfle i’r ganolfan honno hefyd rwy’n
meddwl i gael mewnbwn yn y pendraw i’r modd y mae athrawon a
chynorthwyon dysgu yn datblygu’r Gymraeg.
|
Mr
Jones: Chair, if I can just add one further point: as an
institution that was involved in the establishment of the National
Centre for Learning Welsh recently, I do think that there is role
for that centre, which is leading in Welsh for adults, to engage
with all of the activities happening in the secondary schools and
so on so that there is a continuum and an opportunity for teachers
to consider distance learning courses and so on through this new
centre. I’m aware that the centre is looking at a number of
different ways of introducing the Welsh language into the workplace
in future and there will be an opportunity therefore for that
centre to have an input ultimately in the way that teachers and
teaching assistants develop their skills.
|
[64]
Bethan Jenkins:
Mae gan Suzy gwestiwn clou, os yw
hynny’n iawn, Hannah.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Suzy has a brief question, if that’s okay,
Hannah.
|
[65]
Suzy Davies: Yes. I’m going to ask you some questions about
progression later on, but with regard to the
teachers—I’m not talking about teachers who are either
confident learners or already have Welsh-language skills—who
have taken the great psychological leap from a non-Welsh background
to really go for this and teach through the medium of Welsh, you
mentioned that there are issues of time and that the cwrs
sabothol is expensive. Where would you see the gaps in the
continuum for the Welsh-learner teacher themselves arising? Because
somebody may come into this with all the best intentions in the
world and practicalities get in the way. Apart from time, what do
you think those barriers might be?
|
09:45
|
[66]
Mr Jones: Os edrychwch chi ar Wlad y Basg, mae yna
fuddsoddiad sylweddol o ran amser ac adnoddau. Wrth edrych yn
ôl—mae’n rhwydd edrych yn ôl, ond pan
fyddem ni’n paratoi athrawon i ddysgu yn y Saesneg ond gydag
elfen o Gymraeg yng Nghymru, rydym ni wedi gadael yr athrawon i
fod, i fynd ymlaen â’u busnes eu hunain, heb yr
hyfforddiant parhaus hwnnw. Yng Ngwlad y Basg, mae yna hyfforddiant
parhaus i’r athrawon hynny sy’n dysgu’r
iaith.
|
Mr
Jones: If you look at the Basque Country, there has been a
substantial investment in terms of time and resources. Looking
back—perhaps it’s easy to look back, but when
we’re preparing teachers to teach through the medium of
English but with an element of Welsh in Wales, we have left those
teachers to carry on with their business, without this continuous
training. In the Basque Country, there is continuous training for
those teachers who are teaching through the medium of Basque.
|
[67]
Suzy
Davies: Ble mae hynny’n digwydd? A ydy hyn yn digwydd yn yr
ysgolion eu hunain neu a oes yn rhaid i’r athrawon ddod mas
o’r ysgol i gael y cymorth yna?
|
Suzy Davies: Where does this happen? Does
it happen in the schools themselves or do the teachers have to come
out of school to get that support?
|
[68]
Mr
Jones: Wel, eto, wrth edrych ar y gwahanol systemau posibl yng
Nghymru—. Mae yna strategaethau sirol, wrth gwrs, gan yr
awdurdodau lleol. Mi ddylai hyn fod yn rhan o waith cefnogi’r
siroedd, wedyn, yn y dosbarth ac ar draws y sir, mewn gwirionedd.
Unwaith mae’r athrawon yn cael eu cymhwyso ac yn gadael y
colegau i fynd i dysgu yna, rydych chi’n trosglwyddo’r
awenau i’r awdurdod addysg lleol, mewn gwirionedd. Felly, mae
angen, rwy’n teimlo, mwy o gydweithio rhwng y sefydliadau
sy’n hyfforddi’r athrawon yn gychwynnol ac yna'r
awdurdodau sydd yn cymryd y rôl o’u datblygu
ymhellach.
|
Mr Jones: Well,
again, looking at the different possible systems in Wales—.
There are strategies on a county level, of course, with the local
authorities. This should be part of supporting the county councils,
then, in the classroom and across the county, in reality. Once the
teachers are qualified and leave the colleges to go into teaching,
then, really, you’re transferring the reins to the local
education authority. So, there is a need, I think, for more
collaboration between the institutions that train the teachers
initially and then the authorities that take on the role of
developing them further.
|
[69]
Mae gormod o
raniadau yn y system ar hyn o bryd. Dylai fod yna gontinwwm
hyfforddi lle mae pawb yn cydweithio’n llawer, llawer
agosach. Felly, i ateb eich cwestiwn chi, fe ddylai fod yna
hyfforddiant parhaus yn y dosbarth ond hefyd, drwy’r Ganolfan
Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol, dylai fod yna gyfle i ddysgu’r
Gymraeg a chryfhau’r Gymraeg drwy ddulliau dysgu o bell
hefyd. Mae angen i bobl weithio’n agosach gyda’i
gilydd. Llawer mwy o gydweithio, tybiwn i—dyna’r ateb
yn y pen draw.
|
There are too many gaps in the system. There should
be a training continuum where people collaborate much more. So, to
answer your question, there should be more CPD in the classroom but
also, through the National Centre for Learning Welsh, there should
be an opportunity to learn Welsh and strengthen the Welsh language
through distance learning, for example. There is a need for people
to work closer together. Much more collaboration, I would
think—that’s the answer, ultimately.
|
[70]
Suzy
Davies: Ocê. Diolch.
|
Suzy Davies: Okay. Thank you.
|
[71]
Bethan
Jenkins: Hannah.
|
[72]
Hannah Blythyn: One final question: do you have a view on
the number of additional teachers to teach through the medium of
Welsh that are going to be needed in the long term to meet this
objective?
|
[73]
Mr Tiplady: Mae’n flin gyda fi, nid wyf yn gwybod
faint y bydd eu heisiau. Ond fe allaf gredu, i gael 100,000
ychwanegol o siaradwyr bob 10 mlynedd, os oes lot o'r rheini
drwy’r system addysg, mae’r nifer yn mynd i fod yn
sylweddol. Ond mae’n flin gyda fi, nid oes gyda fi syniad
faint.
|
Mr
Tiplady: No, sorry, I don't know how many would be required.
But I would have thought, to get an additional 100,000 Welsh
speakers every 10 years, if much of that is through the education
system, the number is going to be high. But I’m sorry, I
don’t have any idea of the exact number.
|
[74]
Mr Jones: Nid oes gennyf innau chwaith, yn anffodus. Dim
ond i nodi bod angen cynnydd sylweddol a'r unig ffordd yr ŷch
chi’n mynd i sicrhau hynny o ran y sefydliadau a’r
canolfannau a phwy bynnag sy’n cael eu hachredu yn y dyfodol
yw targedau. Hynny yw, mae’r niferoedd wedi aros yn eithaf
cyson ers 20 mlynedd a rhagor. Mae angen nawr newid gêr,
a’r unig ffordd yr ydych chi’n mynd i wneud hynny, a
mynnu fod y canolfannau sy’n cael eu hachredu yn gwneud
hynny, yw targedu penodol.
|
Mr
Jones: I don’t know either, unfortunately. I just want to
note that we need a significant increase and the only way that
you’re going to secure that in terms of the institutions and
the centres and whoever is accredited in the future is to have
targets. The numbers have remained quite stable for some 20 years
and more. We now need a change of gear, and the only way that you
can do that, and insist that the accredited centres do that, is
through specific targeting.
|
[75]
Bethan Jenkins:
A fyddech chi eisiau cael trafodaeth
ynglŷn â’r targedau yn hytrach na fod y
Llywodraeth yn dweud wrthych chi beth fyddai’r targed i chi?
Er enghraifft, mae’r Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin wedi dweud
wrthym ni faint yn fwy o blant y byddai angen iddyn nhw allu
gwireddu rhyw fath o darged. A fyddai gennych chi ryw fath o
arbenigedd ynglŷn â faint, o fewn y capasiti ar hyn o
bryd, y byddech chi’n gallu gwneud heb fwy o arian? Neu a
fyddai angen mwy o arian beth bynnag er mwyn i chi allu gwireddu
rhyw fath o darged y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn rhoi arnoch
chi?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Would you want to have a discussion about the targets
rather than the Government telling you what the target would be for
you? For example, Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin have told us how many
more children would be needed for them to be able to realise some
sort of target. Would you have some expertise regarding how many,
within the capacity you have at the moment, you could train with
the money you have now? Or would you require more money in order
for you to realise some sort of target that the Government would
place on you?
|
[76]
Mr Jones: Fe fyddem ni’n mawr obeithio fod y
drafodaeth sydd wastad wedi bod rhwng y sefydliadau a’r
Llywodraeth, neu wedi bod yn y gorffennol â’r cyngor
cyllido, yn parhau, oherwydd, yn y pen draw, drwy gydweithio mae
cyrraedd y nod, yn sicr.
|
Mr
Jones: We would very much hope that the discussions that have
always taken place between the institutions and the Government, or
have been in the past with the funding council, would continue,
because, ultimately, collaboration is the way we’re going to
achieve this.
|
[77]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ond, er enghraifft, rydych chi wedi
ei ddweud nad oes targedau ar gyfer medru’r Gymraeg. A ydych
chi wedi dweud hynny wrth y Llywodraeth ac wedi dweud hynny wrth
Gyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru yn y gorffennol, am y ffaith nad
oes yna darged?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: But, for example, you’ve said there are no
targets for people who can speak Welsh. Have you said this to the
Government and have you said this to HEFCW in the past, about the
fact that there isn’t a target?
|
[78]
Mr Tiplady: Ydym. Rydym wedi, fel sefydliad, gwneud
hynny.
|
Mr
Tiplady: As an institution, we have, yes.
|
[79]
Bethan Jenkins:
A beth yw’r ymateb, wedyn,
ganddyn nhw?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: And what’s been their response to that?
|
[80]
Mr Jones: Yn gyffredinol, rwy’n meddwl fy mod
i’n iawn i ddweud nad yw’r cyngor cyllido, hyd yn hyn,
wedi bod yn ffafrio targedau.
|
Mr
Jones: Generally speaking, I think it’s right to say that
the funding council, so far, hasn’t favoured targets.
|
[81]
Bethan Jenkins:
Pam?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Why?
|
[82]
Mr Jones: Nid wyf yn hollol sicr. Gallwch ofyn iddyn nhw,
felly. Ond, yn sicr, mae’n rhaid newid gêr. Os
yw’r strategaeth yma i ddwyn ffrwyth, ac os yw’r
Llywodraeth am weld Cymru wirioneddol ddwyieithog, mae'n rhaid
sicrhau mwy o athrawon sy’n gymwys i ddysgu drwy gyfrwng y
Gymraeg. Yr unig ffordd rydych chi yn mynd i newid sefydliadau
unigol a chanolfannau unigol yw drwy osod targedau ychydig bach yn
fwy uchelgeisiol na’r hyn sy’n digwydd ar hyn o
bryd.
|
Mr
Jones: I couldn’t tell you. You’d have to ask them.
But, certainly, we need a gear shift. If this strategy is to
succeed, and if the Government wants to see a truly bilingual
Wales, then we must ensure that we have more teachers qualified to
teach through the medium of Welsh. The only way you’re going
to change individual institutions and individual centres is by
setting more ambitious targets than we currently have.
|
[83]
Bethan Jenkins:
Mae gan Jeremy gwestiwn clou cyn i ni
symud ymlaen.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Jeremy has a brief question before we move on.
|
[84]
Jeremy Miles:
Jest ar y cwestiwn o dargedau, sut
byddech chi’n gweld proffil y targedau yma? A ydych
chi’n meddwl y byddai angen cynnydd yn syth i lefelau uwch o dargedu, neu a fyddech
chi’n gweld cynnydd graddol yn digwydd dros gyfnod? A oes
gyda chi rhywbeth mewn golwg ynglŷn â’r math o
batrwm y byddai angen ei weld er mwyn cyflenwi’r ddarpariaeth
sydd ei hangen?
|
Jeremy Miles: Just on this question of targets, how would
you see the profile of these targets? Do you think there would be a
need for an immediate increase to higher levels of targeting, or
would you anticipate a gradual increase over a period of time? Do
you have anything in mind about the sort of pattern that we would
need to see in order to supply the provision that we need?
|
[85]
Mr Jones: Bydd angen ymateb yn raddol i gychwyn tybiwn i,
oherwydd yn amlwg mae angen digon o staff yn y sefydliadau
sy’n gallu addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, hynny yw,
hyfforddi’r darpar athrawon drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly,
mae’n rhaid i’r newid fod yn raddol i gychwyn ond
gyda’r nod, o fewn pump i 10 mlynedd, fod y canolfannau yma
yn ganolfannau gwirioneddol ddwyieithog.
|
Mr
Jones: We will need a gradual response initially, I think,
because clearly you need enough staff in the institutions who are
able to train prospective teachers through the medium of Welsh. So,
the change has to be gradual initially but with the aim, within
five or 10 years, that these centres should be truly bilingual
centres.
|
[86]
Jeremy Miles:
Ocê. Diolch.
|
Jeremy
Miles: Okay. Thank you.
|
[87]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Neil Hamilton.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you. Neil Hamilton.
|
[88]
Neil Hamilton: My question follows on naturally from
Suzy’s line of questions a moment ago and it’s really
about the culture and mindset of local authorities and the
education sector generally in Wales towards the provision of Welsh
language education. I’d like to get your views on the
variability that you’ve encountered in the course of your
professional lives, not with the view of naming and shaming
necessarily—identifying individual authorities that might be
more or less open to the Government’s stated objective and
achieving it—but your general views on what more needs to be
done either with local authorities or within your own sector of
education in order to bring about what we all want to see by
2050.
|
[89]
Mr Jones: Wel, mae angen symud ysgolion ar hyd y continwwm
ieithyddol er mwyn cynyddu’r cyflenwad o leoedd ysgol cyfrwng
Cymraeg. Mae hynny’n ffaith, ac felly rydw i’n meddwl
bod lle gan y Llywodraeth i annog a chefnogi’r awdurdodau
hynny sydd yn dymuno gweld hynny’n digwydd o fewn eu
tiriogaeth nhw. Nid ydw i am fanylu ar unrhyw sir yn benodol, ond
mae yna achosion yng Nghymru heddiw efallai lle y mae angen yr hwb
yna ar yr awdurdodau ac ar yr ysgolion i newid. Felly, gydag
ychydig bach yn fwy o gefnogaeth, rwy’n meddwl y bydd modd
cael y maen i’r wal i’r cyfeiriad hwnnw, rwy’n
meddwl. Ond, yn sicr, mae angen cefnogaeth ar yr awdurdodau hynny
sydd yn barod i symud ysgolion ar hyd y continwwm.
|
Mr
Jones: Well, we do need to move schools along the linguistic
continuum if we are to increase the supply of Welsh-medium school
places. That’s a fact, and I think that the Government does
have a role in encouraging and supporting those authorities that
want to see that happening within their territories. I’m not
going to name names or mention any counties, but there are cases in
Wales today where perhaps they need that push, the authorities and
the schools need that push for change. So, with a little more
support, I think it would be possible to achieve our aims in this
area. But, certainly, there needs to be support for those
authorities who are ready to move schools along that continuum.
|
[90]
Mr Tiplady: Dim ond i ategu hynny, os ydym ni’n mynd i
ddyblu faint o siaradwyr Cymraeg sydd gyda ni, yn amlwg,
mae’n rhaid bod cynnydd yn nifer yr ysgolion Cymraeg. Er mwyn
gwneud hynny, mae eisiau anogaeth ar yr awdurdodau lleol i symud
pethau ymlaen. Eto, liciwn i ddim nodi yn benodol unrhyw un, ond
mae yn braf gweld y twf mewn addysg Gymraeg sydd wedi bod yng
Nghaerdydd dros y blynyddoedd yna. Mae’r nifer yn cynyddu ac
mae’n braf i’w weld.
|
Mr
Tiplady: I just want to endorse that. If we’re going to
double the number of Welsh speakers that we have then, clearly,
there is a need for an increase in the number of Welsh-medium
schools. To do that, there is a need to encourage local authorities
to move things on. Again, I wouldn’t like to identify any
authorities specifically, but it is great to see the growth in
Welsh-medium education in Cardiff over the years. The numbers are
increasing and it’s great to see.
|
[91]
Neil Hamilton: The other interesting question is the
re-categorisation of schools—how you move along the continuum
from being English language to bilingual, from bilingual to
Welsh-medium—and the practical problems that are involved in
that. I’d like to get your views on the situation as it is at
the minute in terms of re-categorisation and what more we can do to
speed that process along.
|
[92]
Mr Tiplady: Nid oes gennyf i ddim profiad fy hun o
gategoreiddio—dim ond rhywbeth allanol rwyf wedi’i weld
yn digwydd. Ond, fel ymateb i’r cwestiwn y gofynnodd Jeremy,
rhywbeth sy’n mynd i ddigwydd dros gyfnod yw e i ddechrau,
fel symud categorïau ysgol i fod yn rhai dwyieithog. Nid ydyn
nhw’n dargedau uchel, rwy’n credu, y gallwn ni eu
cyrraedd dros nos—ond gallem ni efallai, fel rhan o’r
targedau ychwanegol i athrawon, targedau ychwanegol i ysgolion,
symud tuag at fynd ar hyd y continwwm. Felly, mae’n flin gyda
fi—rwy’n rhywun o’r tu fas yn edrych i mewn.
Rwy’n credu ei fod yn rhywbeth positif ond rhywbeth
sy’n digwydd yn araf bach yw e, nid rhywbeth a fyddai’n
gallu digwydd dros nos, os mai newid statws ysgol rŷm
ni’n sôn amdano yn hytrach na chreu ysgolion
newydd.
|
Mr
Tiplady: I don’t have any experience myself of
categorisation—I’ve only seen something happening on an
external level. But, in responding to the question that Jeremy
asked, it’s something that’s going to happen over a
period, initially, as is the re-categorisation of schools to be
bilingual. They’re not high targets that we can reach
overnight—but, we could perhaps, as part of the additional
targets for teachers, additional targets for schools, move towards
going along the continuum. So, I apologise—I’m somebody
from the outside looking in. I do think it’s something
that’s positive, but it is happening quite slowly and it
won’t happen overnight, if it’s changing the status of
a school that we’re talking about rather than creating new
schools.
|
[93]
Mr Jones: Yn sicr, mae angen arweiniad pellach ynghylch
sut i gategoreiddio ysgolion o ran iaith. Rwy’n meddwl bod
hynny’n cael ei nodi’n glir yn adroddiad Comisiynydd y
Gymraeg. Hefyd, mae’n codi cwestiynau difrifol efallai am y
modd y mae ysgolion nad ydyn nhw yn rhai cyfrwng Cymraeg yn
cyfrannu yn y pen draw i’r strategaeth Gymraeg sy’n
cael ei datblygu gan y Llywodraeth. Hynny yw, rŷm ni’n
sôn bod y Gymraeg yn perthyn i ni i gyd ac mae’r
Gymraeg yn perthyn i bawb; mae hynny’n allweddol, allweddol
bwysig. Felly, mae rôl gan bob ysgol, beth bynnag yw ei
chefndir ieithyddol hi, i gyfrannu at greu y Gymru ddwyieithog yma
rydym ni’n ei deisyfu. Felly, efallai bod angen ychydig bach
yn fwy o sylw ar y modd y mae ysgolion yn cael eu categoreiddio,
achos weithiau mae hynny, yn amlwg, yn gallu achosi gwrthdaro lle
nad oes angen y gwrthdaro hwnnw mewn gwirionedd.
|
Mr
Jones: Certainly, there needs to be further guidance on how to
categorise schools in linguistic terms. I think that’s
clearly noted in the Welsh Language Commissioner’s report.
Also, it raises some serious questions perhaps about the way in
which non-Welsh-medium schools contribute ultimately to the Welsh
language strategy being developed by Government. We always say that
the Welsh language belongs to all of us, and that’s true and
it’s crucially important. Therefore, every school, whatever
its linguistic background, has a role in contributing towards this
bilingual Wales that we all want to see. So, perhaps we need to
focus a little more on the way schools are categorised, because on
occasion that can cause conflict where there is no need for that
conflict, if truth be told.
|
[94]
Bethan Jenkins: Lee, did you want to come in on that
one?
|
[95]
Lee Waters: Yes, I’d just like to press you a little
further on that final point. What role do you think that
non-Welsh-speaking schools have in reaching this target?
|
[96]
Mr Jones: I fynd nôl at y pwynt allweddol,
mae’r Gymraeg yn perthyn i bawb. Beth bynnag yw’n
cefndir ni, rydym yn digwydd bod yn byw yng Nghymru, ac mae angen i
bawb deimlo balchder ein bod yn gallu siarad o leiaf dwy
iaith—gobeithio, tair, pedair neu bum iaith—oherwydd,
yn y pen draw, mae’n gryfder allweddol i bob unigolyn os
gallwn ni siarad a chyfathrebu mewn mwy nag un iaith.
|
Mr
Jones: To return to the crucial point, the Welsh language
belongs to all of us. Whatever our background, we live in Wales,
and everyone should feel pride that we have at least two
languages—hopefully, we could speak three, four or five
languages—because, ultimately, it is a strength for
individuals to be able to communicate through the medium of more
than one language.
|
[97]
O safbwynt y rheini nad ydynt yn
siarad Cymraeg, mae’n broses o annog a pherswadio, a dangos
bod y Gymraeg nid yn unig yn sgìl i arwain at
waith a chyflogaeth yn y pen draw, ond mae’n arwain at bod yn
rhan o gymuned—yn rhan o gymuned ddwyieithog naturiol yng
Nghymru. Drwy berthyn i gymuned, mae’n llawer haws
cymhathu’r gymuned honno os ŷch chi’n digwydd bod
yn gallu cyfrannu yn yr ieithoedd sy’n cael eu siarad yn y
gymuned honno. Felly, mae’n broses o addysgu, ac mae’n
broses o annog. Mae angen gwneud hynny mewn dulliau sensitif ond
cadarn hefyd. I fynd nôl at strategaeth y Llywodraeth yn y
pen draw—ac rydym ni’n dau yn llwyr gytûn bod y
strategaeth honno’n symud i’r cyfeiriad cywir—mae
angen dod â Chymru gyfan gyda ni i gefnogi’r
strategaeth honno. Mae hynny’n digwydd ar lefel genedlaethol,
ond mewn cymunedau hefyd lle mae’r Gymraeg yn fyw ac yn cael
ei chlywed o ddydd i ddydd.
|
In
terms of those who don’t speak Welsh, then it is a process of
encouragement and persuasion, and demonstrating that the Welsh
language is not only a skill that can lead to opportunities in the
workplace and can lead to employment, but that it leads to being
part of a naturally bilingual community in Wales. By belonging to
that community, it’s far easier to assimilate into that
community if you can contribute in the languages spoken in that
community. So, it’s a process of education and encouragement.
That needs to be done in sensitive ways, but also it needs to be
done robustly. If we return to the Government’s
strategy—and I think that we are both entirely agreed that
that strategy is moving in the right direction—we do need to
bring all of Wales with us on that journey to support the strategy.
That happens at a national level, but also within communities where
the Welsh language is a living language and is heard on a
day-to-day basis.
|
[98]
Lee Waters: Is it your understanding of the concept of
moving along the continuum that all schools will, at some point,
become Welsh-medium schools, and when do you think that might
happen? How long do you think that would take?
|
[99]
Mr Jones: Ni fyddaf yn bodoli, yn sicr. Ni fyddaf yn fyw
bryd hynny, gan y bydd hi’n broses hir. Ond, yn y pen draw,
dyna’r nod—hynny yw, pob ysgol yng Nghymru yn sicrhau
bod pob plentyn yn gadael yn gwbl, gwbl hyddysg ac yn hyderus yn y
Saesneg a’r Gymraeg, a bod yna falchder cenedlaethol mewn
dwyieithrwydd. Dyna’r nod yn yr hir, hirdymor. Nid yw
hynny’n mynd i ddigwydd dros nos. Bydd yn arwain at gryn
dipyn o waith o ran adeiladu ar y sylfeini cadarn sydd eisoes wedi
digwydd ers blynyddoedd lawer mewn sawl rhan o Gymru. Mae angen y
cysondeb hwnnw. Mae gwahanol ardaloedd yng Nghymru mewn mannau
gwahanol ar hyd y daith, ac mae’n rhaid parchu hynny. Bydd
ambell ardal yn gallu symud ymlaen yn gynt nag ambell ardal arall.
Yn y pen draw, mae hyn yn dod yn ôl at strategaethau lleol yr
awdurdodau addysg. Byddwch yn cwrdd â rhai o’r
cynrychiolwyr hynny yn hwyrach heddiw. Rwy’n tybio bod
rôl allweddol bwysig ganddyn nhw i gefnogi’r
strategaeth.
|
Mr
Jones: I won’t be here at that time, certainly.
It’s going to be a very long process. But, ultimately,
that’s the aim—that every school in Wales ensures that
every child in Wales leaves completely confident in English and
Welsh, and that there is a national pride in bilingualism. That is
the very long-term aim. That’s not going to happen overnight.
It’s going to lead to quite a lot of work, building on the
strong foundations that have already been laid in Wales. There is a
need for that consistency. Different areas of Wales are in
different places along this journey, and there is a need to respect
that. Some areas will be able to move forward quicker than other
areas. Ultimately, it comes back to the local strategies of the
education authorities. You are meeting some of those
representatives later today. I think they have a key role in
supporting that strategy.
|
[100]
Bethan Jenkins:
Maen nhw wedi tynnu
mas—
|
Bethan
Jenkins: They have withdrawn, unfortunately—
|
[101]
Dai Lloyd: Sydd yn bwynt arall.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Which is another point.
|
[102]
Bethan Jenkins:
Sydd yn bwynt arall, yn hollol. Mae
gan Suzy gwestiwn penodol ar y thema yma.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Which is another point altogether. Suzy has a specific
question on this theme.
|
[103]
Suzy
Davies: Ie, ar y pwynt gwreiddiol: rydych chi’ch dau wedi
sôn am gefnogaeth ac anogaeth i awdurdodau lleol. O ble y
dylai hynny ddod? A ydym yn sôn am gonsortia neu’r
Llywodraeth yn uniongyrchol? A yw’r capasiti yn y ddau yna yn
barod i’ch helpu chi gyda’r nod yna? Ac a yw’r
nod yn ymestyn hefyd i’r penaethiaid, neu dim ond yr
awdurdodau lleol eu hunain?
|
Suzy Davies: Yes, on the original point: you have both mentioned
support and encouragement for local authorities. Where should that
come from? Are we talking about the consortia, or should it come
directly from the Government? Is the capacity there in order to
assist you in that aim? Also, does it extend to headteachers, or
just to local authorities themselves?
|
[104]
Mr
Tiplady: Wel, fy hun, rwy’n teimlo bod hyn yn gorfod dod
o’r Llywodraeth i ddechrau. Mae’n gorfod bod yn neges
glir ynglŷn â’r datblygiad—ac hefyd helpu
ardaloedd i ddatblygu a helpu ysgolion i ddatblygu. Fel y dywedodd
Gwilym, mae gwahanol rhannau o Gymru mewn llefydd gwahanol.
Byddai’n annheg disgwyl i ysgolion mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru
ymateb fel y byddai ysgolion mewn ardaloedd traddodiadol Gymraeg.
Felly, yn gyntaf, mae’n rhaid i hyn ddod o’r
Llywodraeth, ac mae’n rhaid iddo ddod mewn modd cefnogol,
adeiladol gyda rhyw fath o strwythur hirdymor ynglŷn â
datblygiad. Rwy’n cytuno 100 y cant â Gwilym: dyna
sy’n dod â phawb â’i gilydd, ac yn sicrhau
bod pawb yn teimlo’n rhan o’r datblygiad, ac yn deall
pam ei fod yn digwydd, pam ei fod yn bwysig, a pham ei fod o fudd i
bawb—nid dim ond y bobl hynny yn yr ysgolion Cymraeg, ond
beth gall y Gymraeg ei chynnig i bobl mewn ysgolion sydd ar hyn o
bryd yn ysgolion uniaith Saesneg.
|
Mr
Tiplady: Personally, I think it has to come from the
Government, to start with. It has to be a clear message in terms of
development—and also, helping areas to develop and helping
schools to develop. As Gwilym said, there are different parts of
Wales on different levels. It would be unfair to expect schools in
some parts of Wales to respond in the same way as schools in more
traditionally Welsh-speaking areas. So, first of all, it has to
come from the Government, and it has to come in a supportive and
constructive way, with some sort of long-term structure in terms of
development. I agree 100 per cent with Gwilym: that’s what
brings people together and makes people feel part of that
development, and that they understand why it is happening, why it
is of benefit for everybody—not only those in Welsh-medium
schools, but what the Welsh language can offer those people who are
in English-medium schools at the moment.
|
[105]
Mr
Jones: Byddwn yn ategu hynny. Mae’n rhaid i’r cyfarwyddyd
ddod o du’r Llywodraeth yn y pendraw. Mae angen monitro bod y
gweithredoedd yma’n digwydd ar lawr gwlad, a bod y polisi yn
cael effaith gadarnhaol mewn siroedd penodol, ac yna ysgolion
penodol, wrth i’r trafodaethau hyn ddigwydd. Dyna’r
unig ffordd, hyd y gwelaf i. Ni wnaiff bethau ddim newid oni bai
bod cyfarwyddyd pendant o du’r Llywodraeth.
|
Mr
Jones: I endorse that. The direction has to come from
Government, ultimately. There is a need to monitor in order to
ensure that these activities are happening on the ground, and that
the policy is having a positive impact in specific counties, and
then in specific schools, while these discussions are ongoing.
That’s the only way that things can change. Things
won’t change unless there is clear direction provided by
Government.
|
[106]
Bethan
Jenkins: Jeremy.
|
Bethan Jenkins:
Jeremy.
|
[107]
Jeremy
Miles: Gwnaethom glywed yr wythnos diwethaf gan y Coleg Cymraeg
Cenedlaethol eu bod nhw’n gweld, fel rhan o’u rôl
nhw, y broses o normaleiddio’r Gymraeg, a bod y Gymraeg yn
rhan o’r siwrnai addysg i fyd addysg uwch, fel rhan normal o
fywyd. Y cwestiwn hwn o normaleiddio yw’r ail biler, os caf i
ddefnyddio’r gair hwnnw, yn y strategaeth.
|
Jeremy
Miles: What we heard last week from the Coleg Cymraeg
Cenedlaethol was that it sees as part of its role the process of
normalising the Welsh language, and that the Welsh language is part
of the education journey to higher education, as a normal part of
life. This question of normalisation is the second pillar, perhaps,
if I can use that word, in the strategy.
|
10:00
|
[108]
Hynny yw, mae addysg, ond hefyd y
cwestiwn o wneud y Gymraeg yn iaith yr iard, iaith y gymuned ac
iaith y stryd, ac ati. A ydych chi’n gweld, yn eich
sefydliadau chi, rôl iddyn nhw yn y broses hynny—ynghyd
ag addysgu pobl i ddysgu trwy’r Gymraeg—rôl
i’w chwarae yn y broses honno o normaleiddio’r
Gymraeg?
|
There is
education, but also the question of making the Welsh language the
language of the yard and the street, for example. Do you see in
your institutions a role for them in that process—as well as
teaching people to learn through the medium of Welsh—that
there’s also a role to play in that process of normalising
the Welsh language?
|
[109]
Mr Tiplady: Mae’r gwaith y mae’r coleg Cymraeg
wedi ei wneud gyda ni fel sefydliad dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf
wedi bod yn wych. Mae wedi bod yn anhygoel, mae’n rhaid imi
ddweud. Rydym ni wedi dyblu faint sy’n astudio trwy gyfrwng y
Gymraeg gyda ni dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf, o ganlyniad i’r
gwaith y mae’r coleg Cymraeg wedi ei wneud. Mae’r
continwwm ieithyddol yna’n un hollbwysig, ac wrth inni
weithio fel sefydliad, a gweithio gyda’r coleg Cymraeg o ran
ble rydym ni’n marchnata ein cyrsiau, mae pobl yn dweud
trwy’r amser bod eisiau mynd yn ifancach ac ifancach. Mae
dewisiadau ynglŷn â pha ysgol y mae pobl yn eu
gwneud—ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd—yn aml yn cael eu
gwneud achos beth maen nhw’n gweld y gallan nhw gyrraedd yn y
diwedd: pa gyrsiau sydd ar gael trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a pha swyddi
sydd ar gael.
|
Mr
Tiplady: The work that the coleg Cymraeg have done with us as
an institution over the past few years has been wonderful.
It’s been incredible. We’ve doubled the numbers
studying through the medium of Welsh over the past five years as a
result of the work of the coleg Cymraeg. The linguistic continuum
is crucially important and, as we work as an institution and work
with the coleg Cymraeg in terms of where we market our courses,
then people constantly tell us that we need to target at an earlier
and earlier stage. The choices in terms of schools, in primary and
in secondary, are often made in terms of what they believe they can
achieve ultimately, what courses are available through the medium
of Welsh and what jobs are available at the end of education.
|
[110]
Un o’r pethau rydym ni’n
ei weld nawr yw, er bod mathemateg, y gwyddorau a phethau fel hyn
ar gael trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae o hyd y cysyniad yna’n
bodoli nad ydych chi’n astudio’r gwyddorau yn y Gymraeg
ac nad ydych chi’n gallu gwneud mathemateg trwy gyfrwng y
Gymraeg, er bod y cyfleon yna. Felly, mae dyletswydd arnom ni fel
prifysgolion i wneud pobl yn fwy ymwybodol o’r continwwm
ieithyddol yna sy’n parhau atom ni, ond hefyd cydweithio
gyda’r Coleg Cymraeg er mwyn sicrhau bod y marchnata
yna’n digwydd fel bod rhieni, wrth iddyn nhw wneud y
penderfyniadau, neu ysgolion wrth iddyn nhw ddatblygu ar hyd y
daith, yn sylwi bod yna gyfleoedd addysg uwch ar gael trwy gyfrwng
y Gymraeg sy’n mynd i arwain, wedyn, at swyddi ar ôl
hynny.
|
One of
the things that we see now is, although maths and sciences are
available through the medium of Welsh, there’s still that
concept that you shouldn’t study sciences through the medium
of Welsh, or you shouldn’t study maths through the medium of
Welsh, although the opportunities are there. So we, as
universities, are duty bound to make people more aware of the
linguistic continuum that continues through to universities, but
also in working with the Coleg Cymraeg in order to ensure that that
marketing happens effectively, so that parents, as they make these
choices, or the schools, as they develop along the journey, do
understand that there are HE opportunities available through the
medium of Welsh, which will then lead to jobs, ultimately.
|
[111]
Mr Jones: Well i fi ddatgan diddordeb; rydw i’n un o
gyfarwyddwyr y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. Yn sicr, mae’r
corff hwnnw wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth arwyddocaol iawn i’r
Gymraeg o fewn addysg uwch yn ystod y cyfnod byr mae e wedi bodoli.
O safbwynt normaleiddio’r Gymraeg, wedyn, o safbwynt ein
sefydliad ni, yn sicr o weithio ar gampws Caerfyrddin, rydym ni ar
fin sefydlu canolfan gwasanaethau Cymraeg a fydd yn cyflwyno
modylau dewisol i holl fyfyrwyr y brifysgol ym maes y Gymraeg
a’ch gyrfa a’r Gymraeg o fewn cyd-destun dwyieithog
a’r gweithle dwyieithog. Hynny yw, bydd pob un o’n
myfyrwyr ni yn cael cyfle cyn graddio i astudio un o’r
modylau hynny, a fydd, gobeithio, yn codi eu hymwybyddiaeth nhw
o’r gweithle dwyieithog ac yn sicrhau eu bod nhw’n
gadael y brifysgol yn barod i weithio mewn cyd-destun lle mae yna
fwy nag un iaith, boed yma yng Nghymru neu unrhyw fan arall yn y
byd. Mae’r elfen honno yn bwysig iawn, iawn wrth eu paratoi
nhw ar gyfer byd gwaith.
|
Mr
Jones: I had better declare an interest here, because I am a
director of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. Certainly, that body
has made a significant difference to the Welsh language within
higher education during the very short time it’s been in
existence. In terms of normalising the Welsh language, in terms of
our organisation and working on the Carmarthen campus, we are about
to establish a Welsh language services centre that will introduce
modules for all the students at the university in Welsh and your
career and Welsh within a bilingual context and a bilingual
workplace. All of our students, before graduating, will have an
opportunity to study one of those modules, which will hopefully
raise their awareness of the bilingual workplace and ensure that
they leave university ready to work in a context where there is
more than one language, whether that’s in Wales or anywhere
else in the world. That element is extremely important in preparing
them for the world of work.
|
[112]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ni fydd hynny’n meddwl eu bod
nhw’n dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond dysgu am, er
enghraifft, sut i wneud CV neu sut i apelio am swydd sy’n
gofyn am y Gymraeg yn angenrheidiol, ac yn y blaen, ac yn y
blaen—pethau felly, ie?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: That doesn’t mean that they would learn through
the medium of Welsh, but they would actually learn how to draw up a
CV or how to apply for a job where the Welsh language would be a
requirement. Is that the case? That’s the type of thing
you’re talking about, is it?
|
[113]
Mr Jones: Yn union. Er enghraifft, ym maes twristiaeth,
bydd yna nifer o Gymry di-Gymraeg ar y cwrs, ac rydym yn eu
cyflwyno nhw i Gymraeg syml fydd yn cael ei defnyddio, dywedwch, o
fewn cyd-destun twristiaeth, ond codi ymwybyddiaeth o bwysigrwydd
cyfarch pobl, efallai, yn ddwyieithog pan ddôn nhw i Gymru ar
eu gwyliau, ac yn y blaen.
|
Mr
Jones: Exactly. For example, in the field of tourism, there
will be a number of non-Welsh-speakers on the course, and we
introduce them to simple Welsh that could be used within the
context of tourism, for example, but raising awareness of the
importance of greeting people bilingually when they come to Wales
on holiday, and so on.
|
[114]
Bethan Jenkins:
A oes yna llefydd eraill sy’n
gwneud hynny? A ydy Caerdydd Metropolitan yn gwneud yr un
peth?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: And are there other places that do that? Does Cardiff
Metropolitan do something similar?
|
[115]
Mr Tiplady: Nid i’r un graddau ag y mae’r
Drindod yn ei wneud.
|
Mr
Tiplady: Not to the same extent as Trinity Saint David, no.
|
[116]
Bethan Jenkins:
Sori?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Sorry?
|
[117]
Mr Tiplady: Nid i’r un graddau ag y mae’r
Drindod yn ei wneud.
|
Mr
Tiplady: Not to the same extent as Trinity Saint David, no.
|
[118]
Bethan Jenkins:
Nid i’r un graddau.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Not to the same extent.
|
[119] Mr Tiplady: Na.
|
Mr
Tiplady: No.
|
[120]
Mr Jones: Ond rydym ni’n byw mewn cymuned
ddwyieithog yn y de-orllewin, ac mae’n bwysig bod ein
myfyrwyr ni—ac mae nifer sylweddol yn dod o sir Benfro ac o
ardal Abertawe—yn mynd yn ôl i’w cymunedau nhw,
er eu bod nhw efallai yn ddi-Gymraeg, ond yn cael rhywfaint o
berchnogaeth o’u hiaith, o’r Gymraeg, mewn gwirionedd,
ac yn gallu ei defnyddio hi yn y gweithle, neu o leiaf bod yn
ymwybodol o bwysigrwydd cyfarch rhywun yn ddwyieithog. Mae hynny yr
un mor bwysig yn y pen draw, efallai, â dysgu’r
iaith.
|
Mr
Jones: We live in a bilingual community in south-west Wales and
it’s important that our students—a number come from
Pembrokeshire and the Swansea area—go back to their
communities, even if they perhaps don’t speak Welsh, but they
have some amount of ownership of the Welsh language, and can use it
in their workplace, or at least be aware of the importance of
greeting somebody bilingually. That is as important, ultimately, as
learning the language.
|
[121]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n credu bod hynny’n
ein symud ni ymlaen yn naturiol at gwestiynau Suzy ar
ddilyniant.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: I think that takes us neatly on to Suzy’s
questions on progression.
|
[122]
Suzy Davies: Okay. I want to ask about progression for actual
pupils, first of all. Obviously, it’s the aim of the
Government to ensure that children leaving school leave with the
same level of good Welsh, or good bilingual skills, regardless of
their language background in the home. Bearing in mind the
situation that not every part of Wales is starting from the same
place, and bearing in mind that not every teacher will have the
same level of Welsh language skills because of what we were
discussing earlier, how realistic is that continuum aim?
|
[123]
Mr
Tiplady: Ydy, mae e’n un heriol. Mae e’n rhywbeth rydym
ni’n ei wneud fel canolfan. Rydym ni’n asesu’r
gallu ieithyddol sydd gan ein myfyrwyr wrth iddyn nhw gyrraedd, ac
rydym yn cynnig cefnogaeth iddyn nhw wrth iddyn nhw fynd
trwy’r cyrsiau, er mwyn sicrhau—. Eto, trwy weithio
gyda’r Coleg Cymraeg, os ŷch chi’n gwneud
cymhwyster TAR, mae’n
rhaid i chi wneud tystysgrif cymhwysedd i athrawon nawr.
Rwy’n gwybod ei fod yn rhywbeth sydd gan y Drindod—mae
gan y canolfannau i gyd nawr ac rŷm ni i gyd wedi dod yn rhan
o’r dystysgrif cymhwysedd i athrawon. Roedd pawb yn gwneud
gwaith da ond gwaith da ar wahân, felly mae wedi trial dod
â phethau at ei gilydd a thrial wedyn cysoni’r ffaith
bod pawb yn gorfod cyrraedd lefel y cymhwyster erbyn diwedd
eu cwrs nhw—ond mae’n rhywbeth heriol.
|
Mr
Tiplady: Well, yes, it is challenging. It is something that we
as a centre do. We do assess the linguistic abilities of our
students as they arrive, and we provide support to them as they
proceed through their courses, in order to ensure—. Again, in
working with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, if you are studying
for a PGCE, you must have an additional qualification. I know that
Trinity Saint David has this—all centres have it now and we
are all part of the competency certificate for teachers. Everyone
was doing good work, but it was good work being done in isolation,
so we’ve tried to bring it all together and provide some
consistency that everyone should reach the level of competence by
the end of their course—but as you say, it’s
challenging.
|
[124]
Mr Jones: Os caf i gyfeirio at strategaeth addysg cyfrwng
Cymraeg y Llywodraeth, yr un a gyhoeddwyd yn 2010, mae’n nodi
mai
|
Mr
Jones: If I could just refer to the Welsh Government’s
Welsh-medium education strategy that was published in 2010, it
notes that
|
[125]
‘Addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg
o’r blynyddoedd cynnar, gyda dilyniant ieithyddol cadarn drwy
bob cyfnod addysg, sy’n cynnig yr amodau gorau ar gyfer
meithrin pobl ifanc sy’n wirioneddol
ddwyieithog.’
|
‘Welsh-medium education from the early years, with robust
linguistic progression through every phase of education, offers the
best conditions for developing young people who are truly
bilingual.’
|
[126]
Dyna ddatganiad clir y Llywodraeth yn
ôl yn 2010. Er mwyn sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd,
rŷm ni’n mynd yn ôl eto at sicrhau bod y gweithlu
o’r blynyddoedd cynnar—
|
So, that is a
clear statement from the Government back in 2010. In order to
ensure that that happens, we go back again to ensure that the
workforce from the early years—
|
[127]
Suzy Davies:
Roeddwn i’n mynd i ddod at
hynny.
|
Suzy
Davies: Yes, I was going to come to that.
|
[128]
Mr Jones: —athrawon cynradd, athrawon uwchradd,
tiwtoriaid Cymraeg i oedolion ac yn y blaen—bod yna barhad
felly yn y ddarpariaeth. Nid oes neb wedi sôn am y gair
‘ansawdd’ heddiw. Rwy’n meddwl bod ansawdd y
ddarpariaeth, yn amlwg, yr un mor bwysig â’i hehangder
hi. Felly, mae’n rhaid i ni sicrhau nid yn unig gyflenwad o
athrawon a chynorthwywyr dysgu a gweithwyr blynyddoedd cynnar, ond
rhai o ansawdd sy’n gallu cyflwyno ac annog ac
ysbrydoli’r bobl ifanc yma mewn ffordd arbennig iawn. Felly,
mae angen i’r strategaeth newydd hon roi sylw dyledus
i’r continwwm hwnnw, nid yn unig o ran profiad y disgybl,
felly, ond y sawl sydd yn cyflwyno’r Gymraeg
hefyd.
|
Mr
Jones:—primary school teachers, secondary school
teachers, Welsh language tutors for adults—that there is a
continuum therefore in the provision. Nobody has mentioned the word
‘quality’ today and I think the quality of the
provision is clearly as important as its breadth. We need to ensure
not only the supply of teachers and teaching assistants and early
years workers—we need to ensure the quality, those who can
encourage and inspire these young people in a very special way. So,
there is a need for this new strategy to give attention to that
continuum, not only from the experience of the pupil but also those
who are presenting the Welsh language.
|
[129]
Af i yn ôl eto at un o’r
pwyntiau blaenorol y gwnes i os caf i, Gadeirydd, sef y pwysigrwydd
yma o geisio cael rhagor o bobl ifanc i astudio’r Gymraeg o
ran safon uwch. Mae’r niferoedd yn bryderus o isel ar hyn o
bryd os ydym ni am gael dylanwad mewn 10, 15, 20 mlynedd, ac mae
hwnnw’n fater y byddwn i’n gofyn i chi rhoi sylw ar
fyrder iddo fe.
|
I’ll go
back to one of the previous points I made, Chair, which was the
importance of trying to get more of our young people to study Welsh
at A-level. The numbers are very low and that’s a concern at
the moment if we’re going to have an influence in 10, 15, 20
years, and that would be an issue that I would ask you to look into
with urgency.
|
[130]
Suzy Davies:
Wel, rwyf wedi pwyntio at ansawdd
mewn ffordd achos—y tu ôl i fy nghwestiwn yw: beth
fyddai’r effaith ar blant di-Gymraeg, ar eu continwwm, gan
athrawon sydd ddim yn hyderus yn yr iaith sydd â chyfrifoldeb
i’w dysgu nhw drwy’r Gymraeg?
|
Suzy
Davies: I have referred to quality in a way, because what was
behind my question was what would the impact be on
non-Welsh-speaking children, and on their continuum, if they were
taught by teachers who weren’t confident in the language but
were responsible for tutoring them in the language?
|
[131]
Mr Jones: Beth bynnag yw’r iaith, rŷch chi
eisiau athro sydd yn gallu ysbrydoli’r plant hyn. Yn y fan
honno y byddwn i’n cychwyn ac yn gorffen a dweud y gwir,
oherwydd beth bynnag yw’r iaith, rŷch chi eisiau sicrhau
bod pob un athro, gan gynnwys, os caf i ddweud, athrawon
cyflenwi—achos pan fo athro neu athrawes yn gadael y
dosbarth, rŷch chi yn disgwyl bod y person sy’n dod i
mewn yn ei le fe neu ei lle hi gystal os nad gwell. Felly, mae
hwnnw’n fater sydd eto, rwy’n siŵr, yn rhoi pryder
i rai awdurdodau lleol.
|
Mr
Jones: Whatever the language, you want a teacher that’s
going to inspire the children, and that’s where I would start
and finish. Whatever the language, you want to ensure that every
teacher, including supply teachers, if I may say that—when a
teacher leaves the classroom you do expect that the teacher coming
in his or her place will be as good or even better than that
teacher. I think that is a matter of concern for some local
authorities.
|
[132]
Suzy Davies:
Mae’n her ychwanegol ac efallai
y gallwn ni ystyried hyn rywbryd arall. A allaf i jest fynd yn
ôl hefyd—? Rŷch chi wedi sôn am hynny yn
barod—y blynyddoedd cynnar, y gweithlu ar ôl ysgol, ar
ôl coleg a phob peth. Sut y mae pob sector yn gweithio
gyda’i gilydd ar hyn o bryd gyda’r camau cyntaf tuag at
nod y Llywodraeth?
|
Suzy
Davies: That’s an additional challenge that we should
consider at another time perhaps. If I could return to something
that you’ve already mentioned—early years through to
the workplace after school or college. How are the sectors working
together at the moment with those first steps towards achieving the
Government’s objectives?
|
[133]
Mr Jones: Mae’n rhaid imi ddatgan yn syth nad ydw
i’n arbenigo yn y maes hwnnw o gwbl. Dyna i gyd y gallaf ei
ddweud: o safbwynt y brifysgol, rŷm ni yn gweithio
gyda’r asiantaethau priodol i achredu’n rhaglenni
plentyndod cynnar ni. Mae yna raglen sydd ar gael drwy gyfrwng y
Gymraeg, drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg ac yn ddwyieithog, felly rŷm
ni’n cynnig tri llwybr penodol i’n dysgwyr ni. Yn
amlwg, gyda’r mwyafrif yn dod o ranbarth de-orllewin Cymru,
maen nhw’n ffitio yn dda i’r tair adran hynny. Ond,
i’r rheini sy’n astudio yn Gymraeg, yn ddwyieithog neu
drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg, maen nhw’n cael eu paratoi yn drylwyr
ar gyfer cyd-destun dwyieithog—hyd yn oed y rheini sydd ddim
yn siarad Cymraeg, maen nhw’n cael eu cyflwyno i’r
Gymraeg a sut mae cyflwyno’r Gymraeg i’r plant lleiaf.
Felly, rŷm ni’n hapus ein bod ni’n diwallu’r
anghenion. Rŷm ni’n cydweithio â’r
asiantaethau priodol. Mae nifer o’n myfyrwyr yn mynd ymlaen i
sefydlu canolfannau gofal plant, nifer wedi mynd ymlaen i reoli
canolfannau gofal plant yn Gymraeg ac yn ddwyieithog. Mae gennym ni
yn y brifysgol feithrinfa, y Gamfa Wen, sydd yn feithrinfa yn
canolbwyntio ar y Gymraeg. Felly, mae’n myfyrwyr ni’n
cael hyfforddiant mewn cyd-destun cwbl, cwbl ddwyieithog, felly
maen nhw’n cael eu paratoi yn drylwyr. Ond o safbwynt
cydweithio ymhellach, nid ydw i mewn sefyllfa i ateb eich cwestiwn
chi, yn anffodus.
|
Mr
Jones: Well, I should state immediately that I’m no
expert in that area. All I can say: in terms of the university, we
are working with the appropriate agencies to accredit our early
years programmes. There is a programme available through the medium
of Welsh, another through the medium of English and there is one
that is bilingual, so there are three learning routes for our
students. With the majority coming from the south-west of Wales,
they fit neatly into those three categories. But for those studying
through the medium of Welsh, bilingually or through the medium of
English, they are thoroughly prepared for a bilingual context. Even
those who don’t speak Welsh, they are introduced to the Welsh
language and how to present the Welsh language to those youngest
children. So, we are content that we are meeting the needs. We are
working with the appropriate agencies. Many of our students go on
to establish childcare centres, many have gone on to manage
childcare centres through the medium of Welsh and bilingually. At
the university, we have a nursery, y Gamfa Wen, which focuses on
the Welsh language. Therefore, our students are trained in an
entirely bilingual context, so they are thoroughly prepared. But in
terms of further collaboration, I’m not in a position to
answer your question, I’m afraid.
|
[134]
Mr Tiplady: Na finnau, mae’n flin gen i. Dim ond
ategu—mae ein hastudiaethau plentyndod cynnar ni yn yr un
sefyllfa. Rŷm ni’n gweithio’n agos gyda darparwyr
lleol ac yn sicrhau bod dwyieithrwydd yn elfen gref o’r
cyrsiau i gyd.
|
Mr
Tiplady: Neither am I, I’m afraid. Our early years
studies are in the same position. We work with local providers and
do ensure that bilingualism is a strong element of all of those
courses.
|
[135]
Suzy
Davies: A allaf i ofyn am
hynny, te? Achos mae pobl sy’n mynd i goleg, yn arbennig i
astudio gofal plant, er enghraifft, yn dod o’r ardal leol yn
aml. Nid yw’r un peth gyda’r prifysgolion. Felly, os
yw’r coleg mewn lle di-Gymraeg, pa fath o Gymraeg rŷch
chi’n ei weld ar y cyrsiau gofal plant, er enghraifft? Achos
mae yna gyfrifoldeb arnoch chi, mewn ffordd, i fod yn siŵr bod
gan yr athrawon sy’n dysgu’r cyrsiau yna lefel o
Gymraeg, os maen nhw’n mynd i’w cyflawni.
|
Suzy Davies: Can
I ask about that, then? People who go to college, particularly to
study childcare, are from the local area quite often. That’s
not true with universities, perhaps. But, if a college is in a
non-Welsh-speaking area, what sort of Welsh do you find on
childcare courses, for example? Because there is a responsibility
on you, really, to ensure that the teachers who teach on those
courses have a level of Welsh, if they are to deliver.
|
[136]
Mr
Jones: O safbwynt y radd
BA addysg plentyndod cynnar yn y Drindod, mae’r cwrs hwn yn
rhedeg ers degawd a rhagor. Rydym ni wastad wedi cael llwybr
cyfrwng Cymraeg. Byddwn i’n dadlau yn reit gryf fod canran
uchel o’r myfyrwyr hynny yn fyfyrwyr aeddfed—gwragedd,
yn benodol, sydd wedi cael plant, ac yn dod nôl i addysg.
Rydym ni fel sefydliad wedi penderfynu darparu dau lwybr iddyn nhw:
y llwybr traddodiadol, lle maen nhw’n dod i mewn bob dydd yn
ystod yr wythnos waith, ond llwybr dysgu hyblyg hefyd, lle maen
nhw’n dod i mewn gyda’r nos ac ar benwythnosau, lle mae
staff yr ysgol plentyndod cynnar yn rhoi o’u hamser i fod ar
gael ar benwythnosau a gyda’r nos i gefnogi’r myfyrwyr
aeddfed yma sy’n parhau i weithio. Yn aml iawn, dyna’r
myfyrwyr cryfaf, yn y pen draw, sef myfyrwyr sy’n dod
o’r gweithle. Rydw i’n edmygu’n fawr iawn eu
hymrwymiad nhw a’u parodrwydd nhw i ddatblygu law yn llaw
â gweithio o ddydd i ddydd. Mae’n dipyn o ymrwymiad.
Felly, i ateb eich cwestiwn chi, rydw i’n hyderus fod canran
uchel iawn o’r myfyrwyr hynny yn fyfyrwyr safonol iawn, a
nifer ohonyn nhw sy’n mynd nôl i’r gweithle a
chael dyrchafiad wedyn yn sgil y ffaith eu bod nhw wedi cael
cymhwyster gradd drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg neu yn
ddwyieithog.
|
Mr
Jones: In terms of the early years education BA course at
Trinity Saint David, that’s been going for a decade and more.
We’ve always had a Welsh-medium pathway through that course,
and I would make the case quite strongly that a high percentage of
those students are mature students—mainly women who’ve
had children and are returning to education. We as an institution
have decided to provide two pathways: the traditional pathway,
where they come in every day during the working week, but also a
flexible learning pathway, where they come in in the evenings and
on weekends. So, the staff of the early years school do provide
their time to be available in the evenings and at weekends to
support these mature students who continue to work. Very often,
they are the strongest students, namely those who come directly
from the workplace. I very much admire their commitment and their
willingness to develop themselves along with working on a
day-to-day basis. It’s quite a commitment for them. So, to
answer your question, I am confident that a very high percentage of
those students are of a high quality, and many of them will return
to the workplace and gain promotion as a result of the fact that
they have achieved graduate level through the medium of Welsh or
bilingually.
|
[137]
Suzy
Davies: Felly, maen
nhw’n chwilio am y Gymraeg—pobl fel hynny—yn lle
meddwl, ‘O, Cymraeg unwaith eto’, fel y mae rhai
sy’n dod yn syth o’r ysgol weithiau yn ei
feddwl.
|
Suzy
Davies: Therefore, they’re looking for the Welsh
language—people like
that—instead of thinking, ‘Oh, Welsh once again’,
as some, who’ve come straight out of school, sometimes
think.
|
[138]
Mr
Jones: Mae’r rheini sydd o ddifrif eisiau aros yn yr ardal, yn
ne-orllewin Cymru, yn gweld budd sylweddol o astudio o leiaf rhan
o’u cwrs trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
|
Mr
Jones: Those who are serious about staying in the region, in
the south-west of Wales, see great benefit in studying at least
part of their course through the medium of Welsh.
|
[139]
Suzy
Davies: O, grêt. Diolch.
|
Suzy
Davies: Oh, great. Thank you.
|
[140]
Mr
Tiplady: Rydym ni’n cynnig llwybr Cymraeg a llwybr Saesneg hefyd.
Mae’r niferoedd yn eithaf da ar y llwybr Cymraeg, ac yn fwy
sylweddol ar yr un Saesneg. Ond mae’r rheini gyda ni, yn
wahanol i’r rheini gyda Gwilym, yn rhai traddodiadol—yn
aml yn syth o’r ysgolion, ac, yn aml, efallai, gyda’r
syniad o fynd mewn i ofal plant, neu o bosibl yn gweld hyn fel
llwybr i mewn i ddysgu ac wedyn y dilyniant i’r cyrsiau uwch
TAR sydd gyda ni.
|
Mr
Tiplady: We offer a Welsh route and an English path as well.
There are good numbers on the Welsh-language one, and a more
substantial number on the English side. But those we have,
different from Gwilym, are traditional ones—usually straight
from school, and usually perhaps with the idea of going into
childcare or seeing this as a pathway into teaching and then
progression to the higher PGCE courses that we have.
|
[141]
Suzy
Davies: Ocê. Diolch.
|
Suzy Davies: Okay. Thank you.
|
[142]
Bethan
Jenkins: Lee.
|
[143]
Lee Waters: Just to pick up on that issue of the different
catchments that you both appeal to, you said earlier, Mr Jones,
that the view of your institution was that there should be a
compulsory element in all teacher training courses across Wales for
a Welsh-language element. Clearly, many of the students that
you’re all appealing to have options: they don’t have
to stay in Wales; they could go elsewhere. So, what assessment have
you made about the likely consequence of having that element of
compulsion on the levels of recruitment we might have for teachers
in Wales?
|
[144]
Mr Jones: O safbwynt y cyrsiau cynradd, nid ydym ni wedi
dod ar draws unrhyw anawsterau recriwtio sylweddol iawn.
Rwy’n meddwl ein bod ni’n trosglwyddo’r Gymraeg
i’r rheini sy’n dysgu’r Gymraeg fel ffordd
o’u paratoi nhw ar gyfer unrhyw gyd-destun dysgu. Rydym ni
wedi cael llythyron gan fyfyrwyr sydd wedi mynd i weithio yn
Llundain a de Lloegr, sydd wedi cael eu hunain mewn sefyllfa lle
maen nhw’n dysgu mewn ysgol lle mae dwy neu dair iaith yn
cael eu dysgu. Felly, rydych chi’n eu paratoi nhw ar gyfer
dysgu mewn cyd-destun dwyieithog neu amlieithog. Ond rwy’n
meddwl ei fod yn bwysig, os ydyn nhw’n dod i un o’r
sefydliadau neu un o’r canolfannau yng Nghymru, eu bod
nhw’n sylweddoli bod yr addysg a chawson nhw yn fanna yn
wahanol i’r hyn a chawson nhw yn Lloegr, neu yn yr Alban, neu
yn Iwerddon neu ble bynnag—ei fod yn addysg Gymreig a’u
bod nhw’n cael eu paratoi ar gyfer cyd-destun gwlad lle mae
yna ddwy iaith swyddogol a lle mae yna alw am addysg drwy gyfrwng y
Saesneg a thrwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac, yn wir, addysg ddwyieithog
hefyd. Felly, er mwyn paratoi unrhyw un sy’n graddio
o’r canolfannau achrededig hyn, rydw i’n meddwl bod
dyletswydd arnom ni i sicrhau bod pob un sydd yn graddio yn gadael
gydag elfen o ddealltwriaeth bod Cymru yn wlad ddwyieithog a bod
angen cyflwyno dwy iaith mewn ysgol.
|
Mr
Jones: From the point of view of primary courses, we
haven’t come across any significant recruitment difficulties.
I think we are transferring the Welsh language to those who are
learning Welsh as a way of preparing them for any teaching context.
We’ve received letters from students who’ve gone to
work in London and the south of England who find themselves in a
situation where there are two or three languages are used. So, you
are preparing them for teaching in a bilingual or multilingual
context. But I do think it’s important that, if they come to
one of the institutions or centres in Wales, they understand that
the education that they will get there is different from that they
will get in Scotland, England or Ireland or wherever—that it
is a Welsh education and that they are being prepared for the
context of a nation where there are two official languages and
where there is demand for education through the medium of English
and through the medium of Welsh, as well as bilingual education.
So, in order to prepare anyone who graduates from these accredited
centres, I think that we are duty bound to ensure that every one of
our students leaves with an element of understanding that Wales is
a bilingual nation, and that we need to present two languages in
school.
|
[145] Lee
Waters: I understand that, but my question is slightly
different. It’s about the unintended consequence of that on
the numbers and the standards of the graduates and the
undergraduates who we might attract. Has there been any assessment
of the likely impact of that?
|
10:15
|
[146]
Mr Jones: Nid wyf yn meddwl fod unrhyw asesiad ffurfiol
wedi digwydd o hynny, nag oes—dim hyd y gwn i.
|
Mr
Jones: I don't think there’s been any formal assessment,
no—not as far as I know.
|
[147] Lee
Waters: Don’t you think we need that before we start
making proposals of this nature?
|
[148]
Mr Jones: Mae’n gwestiwn pwysig, ydy. Mae angen
ystyried, yn amlwg, yr holl oblygiadau, nid dim ond y pwynt
rŷch chi’n ei wneud o safbwynt y niferoedd sydd angen eu
hyfforddi yng Nghymru. Mae’n dibynnu hefyd faint mae’r
boblogaeth yn mynd i gynyddu neu leihau. Mae sawl ffactor. Nid wyf
yn siŵr os wy’n deall eich cwestiwn, mae’n ddrwg
gen i. A hoffech chi—?
|
Mr
Jones: It’s an important question, yes. We do, of course,
need to consider all the implications, not only the points that you
have made in terms of the numbers that we need to train in Wales.
It depends also on what changes there will be in demographics.
There are several factors. I'm not sure if I understood your
question entirely. Would you like to—?
|
[149]
Mr Tiplady: O’m rhan i, mae 85 y cant o’n
myfyrwyr ni yn dod o Gymru yn barod. Felly, mae 15 y cant yn dod o
ar draws y ffin. Mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau ein bod yn paratoi 100 y
cant o’r myfyrwyr yna i weithio yng Nghymru, o bosib. Ond y
cwestiwn sydd gyda chi yw, wrth gynyddu hynny, a ydy hynny’n
mynd i leihau'r niferoedd hynny sy’n dod o ar draws y ffin?
Wel, nid ydym ni’n gwybod, yw’r ateb i hynny. Ond mae
yna ddyletswydd arnom ni i baratoi pawb—y 100 y cant
o’r rheini—at y posibilrwydd ar ôl iddyn nhw
orffen y byddan nhw’n gweithio yng Nghymru ac y byddan nhw
yma.
|
Mr
Tiplady: From my point of view, 85 per cent of our students are
Welsh domiciled. So, 15 per cent cross the border, as it were. We
must ensure that we prepare 100 per cent of those students to work
in Wales, possibly. But the question that you have is whether
increasing that is going to reduce the numbers that come across the
border. Well, we simply don’t know, that’s the answer
to that. But we are duty-bound to prepare everyone—100 per
cent of our students—for the possibility that they will work
in Wales.
|
[150]
Beth rŷm ni’n ffyddiog
iawn amdano a beth rŷm ni’n ei wneud yw, pan fyddwn ni
yn dod â Chymraeg achlysurol i mewn, rydym ni’n gwneud
hynny ar y lefel y mae ar hyn o bryd, yn dda, ac yn gwneud
i’r myfyrwyr ddeall pam fyddwn ni’n ei wneud e a
rhoi’r cyd-destun Cymreig iddyn nhw. Felly, o’r
ddealltwriaeth sydd gen i, mae’r myfyrwyr, hyd yn oed y rhai
sy’n astudio trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg, yn hapus i wneud y lefel
o Gymraeg y maen nhw’n ei wneud yn awr achos maen nhw’n
deall y cyd-destun Cymreig. Ond nid oes asesiad pellach
wedi’i wneud o ran, wrth gynyddu hynny, na fyddai
hynny’n denu mwy o ar draws y ffin.
|
What we are
very confident of and what we do is that, when we do bring
incidental Welsh in, we do it at the level it is at the moment, do
it well, and ensure that the students understand why we’re
presenting that to them and give them that Welsh context. So, my
understanding is that the students, even those who study through
the medium of English, are happy with the level of Welsh presented
at the moment because they understand the Welsh context. But
there’s been no further assessment of whether increasing that
would have an impact on the numbers crossing the border.
|
[151] Lee
Waters: Exactly. That’s my concern, Mr Jones: the impact
it has overall on the numbers and standards of the students we
attract. I just wondered if, behind your recommendation, there was
any work done on assessing that, but it seems not; it’s more
of a value-based judgment.
|
[152]
Mr Jones: Nid wyf yn rhagweld y byddai yna effaith
negyddol ar y recriwtio oherwydd, yn y pen draw, canran fechan
iawn, iawn o’r myfyrwyr sy’n dod o Loegr i’r
cyrsiau hyfforddi athrawon—yn gyffredinol, canran fechan,
fechan iawn.
|
Mr Jones: I don’t foresee that
there would be a negative impact on recruitment because,
ultimately, it’s a very, very small percentage of students
who come from England to the teacher training courses—in
general, it’s a very, very small percentage.
|
[153] Lee
Waters: Okay. I have a final question about the level of
joined-up action between central and local government on the
strategies and the funding. What’s your experience of how
co-ordinated and integrated the different levels of government are
in this sector, in this area?
|
[154]
Mr Tiplady: Nid oes gormod o brofiad gennyf i ynglŷn
â hynny, mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud. Gwilym, a oes
rhywbeth gyda chi?
|
Mr
Tiplady: I don’t have too much experience in that field,
I have to say. Gwilym, do you have anything to say?
|
[155]
Mr Jones: Nac oes. Hynny yw—a ydych chi’n
sôn am y cyngor cyllido?
|
Mr
Jones: No. That is—are you talking about the funding
council?
|
[156] Lee
Waters: I mean generally, in terms of teacher training. Are the
centre and the local authorities sufficiently integrated in pushing
in the same direction to reach the targets that we want to
meet?
|
[157]
Mr Jones: I ateb y cwestiwn ar ei ben, rwy’n meddwl
bod modd i’r Llywodraeth ganolog, awdurdodau lleol, y
consortiwm lleol a’r ganolfan hyfforddi leol
gydweithio’n agosach ar adegau. Barn bersonol yw hynny yn fwy
na barn sefydliadol. Weithiau, rydym ni’n colli cyfle,
efallai, i rannu adnoddau ac i sicrhau’r continwwm hwnnw
o’r hyfforddiant cychwynnol, hyfforddiant parhaus a
datblygiad proffesiynol parhaus athrawon o fewn rhanbarth. Hynny
yw, mae yna welliant mawr wedi digwydd, ond rwy’n meddwl bod
lle i gydweithio’n llawer agosach eto.
|
Mr
Jones: To answer your question directly, I think that central
Government, local authorities, the local consortia and the local
training centres could collaborate more closely at times.
That’s a personal opinion rather than an institutional
opinion. But, on occasion, we may be missing some opportunities to
share resources and to secure that continuum from the initial
training, through to CPD and general training for teachers. That
is, there’s been great improvement, but I do think that there
is room for closer collaboration, certainly.
|
[158]
Lee Waters: Grêt, diolch.
|
Lee
Waters: Great, thanks.
|
[159]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am
ddod—. O, mae gan Suzy gwestiwn clou.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you very much for coming—. Oh, Suzy has a
quick question.
|
[160]
Suzy Davies: It’s sort of on the same point. A continuum for
teachers and children, we’ve all been talking about that,
but, in the future, we are still likely to be attracting and
needing teachers, particularly at secondary-school level, who
haven’t trained in Wales and don’t come from Wales. Are
we confident that we can help those teachers reach skill levels
that are useful?
|
[161]
Mr Jones: O safbwynt safonau, mi ddylai fod yna gysondeb
ar draws Cymru a Lloegr—i fynd nôl at eich pwynt chi yn
awr—hynny yw, mae’n rhaid cyrraedd safon benodol cyn
derbyn statws athro cymwysedig. Yr hyn yr hoffwn ei weld, i’r
rheini sy’n cael eu hyfforddi yn Lloegr ac yn dymuno dod yn
ôl i Gymru, yw bod yna gwrs diweddaru neu gwrs uwchraddio neu
uwchsgilio o ran Cymreictod, i’w paratoi nhw i weithio yng
Nghymru. Oherwydd mae gweithio yng Nghymru rywfaint yn wahanol i
weithio mewn dinas neu ardal wledig yn Lloegr. Felly, mae angen
rhyw hyfforddiant, boed yn becyn dysgu o bell neu beth
bynnag—bod rhywbeth ar gael i’w hatgoffa nhw fod y
cyd-destun Cymreig yn wahanol i’r cyd-destun y tu draw
i’r ffin.
|
Mr Jones: In terms of standards,
there should be consistency across Wales and England—to go
back to your point now—that is, there is a need to reach a
specific standard before getting the qualification of a teacher.
What I would like to see, for those who have trained in England and
wish to come back to Wales, is that there is an updating course or
an upskilling course available in terms of Welshness, which
prepares them to work in Wales. Because working in Wales is
slightly different to working in a city or a rural area in England.
So, there is a need for some sort of training, whether it is a
distance-learning package or whatever—that something is
available to remind them that the Welsh context is different to the
context across the border.
|
[162]
Suzy Davies: Okay, so it’s more about learning the context
of teaching in Wales, rather than becoming skilled enough in the
Welsh language to be able to teach.
|
[163]
Mr Jones: Eto, fe fyddwn i’n gobeithio, fel rhan
o’r pecyn hwnnw, fod
pecyn gloywi iaith ar gael.
|
Mr
Jones: Again, I would hope that, as part of that package, there
would be a Welsh improvement package as well.
|
[164]
Suzy Davies:
Yes, because some will come in and
go back to England at some point, so they’re not staying
forever. Okay, thanks. Diolch.
|
[165]
Bethan
Jenkins: Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod mewn
heddiw. Mae’n siŵr y byddwch chi’n dilyn yr hyn
rydym ni yn ei wneud fel ymchwiliad, a bydd croeso i chi edrych ar
y record i sicrhau eich bod yn hapus gyda phopeth. Ni fyddwch yn
gallu ei newid, wrth gwrs, ond—. [Chwerthin.] Diolch
yn fawr iawn am ddod mewn heddiw.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Excellent. Thank you very much for joining us
today. I am sure you will be following our inquiry, and
you’re welcome to review the record to ensure that you are
happy with everything. You can’t change what you’ve
said, of course, but—. [Laughter.] Thank you very much for your
evidence this morning.
|
10:20
|
Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to
Note
|
[166]
Bethan
Jenkins: Rwyf am symud yn glou i’r eitem, papurau
i’w nodi, fel ein bod ni wedi ei wneud. Papur 1 yw llythyr
ataf i gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet dros yr Economi a Seilwaith
ynglŷn â Chymru Hanesyddol, a phapur 2 yw llythyr ataf i
gan Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg am ymchwiliad
i strategaeth y Gymraeg newydd Llywodraeth Cymru. A yw pawb yn
hapus i nodi’r llythyrau hynny? Fe wnawn ni gael seibiant nes
bod y tystion eraill yn dod. Diolch yn fawr.
|
Bethan Jenkins: I want to move swiftly to the papers to note so
that we’ve covered that. The first paper is a letter to me
from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on
Historic Wales, and the second is a letter from the Chair of the
Children, Young People and Education Committee on the inquiry into
the Welsh Government’s new Welsh language strategy. Is
everyone content to note those pieces of correspondence? We will
have a break until our next witnesses arrive. Thank you.
|
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:21 a 10:36
The meeting adjourned between 10:21 and 10:36.
|
Ymchwiliad i Strategaeth y Gymraeg Ddrafft Llywodraeth
Cymru: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 5
Inquiry into the Welsh Government’s Draft Welsh Language
Strategy: Evidence Session 5
|
[167]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch yn fawr. Rŷm ni’n
parhau â’r gwaith ynglŷn â 1 filiwn o
siaradwyr fel rhan o’r dystiolaeth. Diolch yn fawr i Hayden
Llewellyn, prif weithredwr Cyngor y Gweithlu Addysg, ac i Angela
Jardine, sef cadeirydd Cyngor y Gweithlu Addysg, am ddod i mewn
atom ni heddiw—croeso i chi. Rŷm ni am gychwyn gyda chwestiynau, os ys hynny’n
iawn gyda chi. Mae gennym nifer o gwestiynau ar nifer o sectorau.
Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn cwestiwn clou i ddechrau: beth yw eich
barn gynhenid chi ynglŷn ag a yw’r amcan yma o gael 1
filiwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050 yn rhywbeth rŷch chi’n ei
gefnogi? A ydy e’n realistig ac ymarferol? Pa fath o
newidiadau a fydd angen cael eu gwneud er mwyn sicrhau bod y
gôl hynny’n cael ei gwireddu? Rwyf i jest eisiau cael
eich barn gyntaf ynglŷn â hyn. Diolch yn
fawr.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Thank you very much. We continue with the work on the
1 million Welsh speakers as part of the evidence. Thank you very
much to Hayden Llewellyn, chief executive of the Education
Workforce Council, and Angela Jardine, who is the chair of the
Education Workforce Council, for coming in today—welcome to
you. We want to start with questions, if that’s okay with
you. We have a number of questions on a number of different areas.
I just want to ask a quick question to begin in the context of your
view on whether this stated aim of reaching 1 million Welsh
speakers by 2050 is something that you support. Is it realistic and
practical? What sort of changes would be required to ensure that
that aim is realised? I just want to have your initial view on
this. Thank you.
|
[168]
Ms Jardine: Diolch yn fawr. Fe wnaf i ddechrau. Diolch yn
fawr am y gwahoddiad, beth bynnag, i ddechrau. Rŷm ni’n
meddwl ei fod yn beth da bod y drafodaeth hon yn mynd yn ei blaen
ac rŷm ni’n gweld bod y targed yn ei hunain yn heriol tu
hwnt, ond rŷm ni’n meddwl bod modd i fod yn llwyddiannus
efo hyn cyn belled â bod yna strwythur a chynllun yn eu lle a
bod digon o amser—ac
rŷm ni’n meddwl bod digon o amser—i wneud yn
siŵr bod y cynllun yn dod yn fyw fel y disgwylir.
|
Ms
Jardine: Thank you very much. I’ll start. Thank you for
the invitation to appear before you. We believe that it is positive
that this debate is happening and we see the target as being
exceptionally challenging, but we do believe that it is achievable
as long as there are structures and plans in place and that there
is sufficient time—and we believe that there is—to
ensure that this aim is achieved as expected.
|
[169]
Rŷm ni meddwl bod rhaid trio
diffinio beth ydy ystyr siaradwr Cymraeg er mwyn medru asesu
llwyddiant y project, ond mae eisiau gwneud bach mwy o waith i
egluro ystyr y term yna cyn dechrau.
|
We do believe
that we should endeavour to define the meaning of Welsh speaker, so
that we can benchmark the success of the project, but some more
work needs to be done to actually explain that term before we
start.
|
[170]
Bethan Jenkins:
A ydych chi wedi edrych ar beth
yw’ch diffiniad chi o gwbl?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Have you given any thought to your idea of the meaning
of that term?
|
[171]
Ms Jardine: Wel, na, achos mae yna wahanol ffyrdd o’i
wneud. Rŷm ni jest yn meddwl bod rhaid cael eglurhad
ynglŷn â hynny. Nid ydym eisiau dweud beth ddylai hynny
fod, ond rŷm ni’n gweld, gyda phethau fel Donaldson er
enghraifft, ei bod yn bwysig ei bod yn iaith fyw sy’n cael ei
defnyddio yn y gymuned yn ogystal ag yn yr ysgolion—nid jest
yn yr ysgolion.
|
Ms
Jardine: Well, no, because there are different ways of doing
that. We just think there is a need for an explanation on that. We
don’t want to say what that should be, but we see, for
example in Donaldson, that it’s important that’s
it’s a language that’s alive and used in communities as
well as in schools—not just in schools.
|
[172] Do you want to
add anything?
|
[173] Mr
Llewellyn: Yes. I would add to what Angela says there and just
call for us to be realistic. The 2011 census indicated just over
500,000 Welsh speakers, so we’re looking to double that
number. As Angela indicated there, we’re reassured by the
timescale—it is a realistic timescale—but it’s
still a really big increase. So, I think the starting point
absolutely has to be that we know what we’re counting and
everybody in Wales is clear that if we do or don’t meet the
target, we’re absolutely clear what we’re measuring
against. That absolutely has to be our starting point.
|
[174]
Ms Jardine: Rŷm ni hefyd yn gallu dweud ychydig bach
ecstra am y gwaith sydd wedi’i wneud yn barod.
O’n cofrestr ni, rŷm
ni’n gwybod bod yna sabbaticals wedi bod yn cael eu
gwneud ers tipyn nawr, ond yn ôl beth sydd gennym ni ar ein
cofrestr, mae impact hynny’n gymharol fach, o gofio’r
ynni sydd wedi mynd i mewn i wneud y mathau yna o raglenni. So, mae
eisiau edrych yn fanwl ar le rŷm ni’n dechrau
efo’r gweithlu addysg, achos rŷm ni o’r farn y
bydd y gweithlu addysg yn allweddol iawn i lwyddiant yr uchelgais
hon. Felly, dechrau ar y dechrau, ac rwy’n siŵr bod Hayden yn gallu dweud rhagor am beth y mae’r
gofrestr yn dweud wrthym ni am y gweithlu addysg fel y mae ar hyn o
bryd.
|
Ms
Jardine: We can also say a little bit about the work that has
been done already. From our register, we know that sabbaticals have
been ongoing for a while now, but according to what we’ve got
on our register, the impact of that is comparatively small, given
the energy that has gone into doing those sorts of programmes. So,
there is a need to look in detail at where we start with the
education workforce, because we’re of the opinion that the
education workforce will be very key to the success of this
ambition. So, starting at the beginning, and I’m sure that
Hayden can say a little bit more about what the register tells us
about the education workforce as it is at the moment.
|
[175]
Mr Llewellyn:
Certainly. In terms of Welsh
speakers, the number of Welsh speakers in the teaching workforce
has been consistent for a number of years. We’ve reported it
in our statistics at around about the 33 per cent mark. That is
higher than the Welsh population, so it is an encouraging place to
start.
|
[176]
The key point we would indicate, and
it’s something we’ve been fairly clear on, is that
under our expanded remit, we were asked to register support staff,
teaching assistants and the like in Wales for the first time in
April of this year. In doing that, we were told to expect, by the
Welsh Government, to register 25,000 teaching support staff. That
was the number we were told to expect. As at today, we’ve
registered nearly 33,000—over 30,000 in schools and 2,500 in
FE colleges—so it is clear that the percentage of the
workforce now in our schools has got a far larger make-up of
support staff and teaching assistants than ever before. The number
has increased year on year, but it’s to a scale that really I
don’t think anybody appreciated.
|
[177]
We’ve seen similar in other
professions, such as health and policing and the like, but this is
the first time in teaching. The key challenge, therefore, for the
Welsh language is—and we put this in our
submission—that in trying to upskill the workforce, we
can’t just focus on schoolteachers—we absolutely have
to focus on the support staff as well; otherwise, simply, this
won’t work.
|
[178]
Bethan
Jenkins: Rŷm ni’n mynd i symud at gwestiynau
ynglŷn â recriwtio ac mae Lee Waters yn mynd i gychwyn y
drafodaeth.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: We’re
going to move on now to questions on recruitment and Lee Waters is
going to start the discussion.
|
[179]
Lee Waters:
On that point, what assessment is
there on the language skill levels of the teaching support
staff?
|
[180]
Mr Llewellyn:
Well, at the moment, very little.
Having registered this significant cohort for the first time, as I
mentioned, in April of this year, we will now, as a council, go
about the same work we did for schoolteachers and that will
populate the register so that, in Wales, we know for the first time
what the language skills of those support staff are. So,
we’re starting from a low base, where there is no information
about those people, but we will be able to populate that,
certainly, with the support of support staff’s trade unions,
pretty quickly. So, in two, three or four years’ time,
we’ll have, for the first time, a fairly good feel of what
our baseline is for those support staff. Anecdotally, it’s
quite low—it’s lower than schoolteachers.
|
[181]
Ms Jardine:
Also, we know about schoolteachers
because we ask them two questions. One is, ‘Are you able to
speak Welsh?’ and ‘Are you able to teach through the
medium of Welsh?’ So, we’ve got figures on both of
those, which are in our submissions as well. That’s what I
was referring to earlier in terms of the programmes that have been
undertaken and funded in that the level of those hasn’t
changed since we started recording, really—they’ve been
pretty consistent, even though there has been a significant
investment in the amount of training that’s been available
for the Welsh language. So, that’s something to look
at—
|
[182]
Lee Waters:
Those figures are 33 per cent of
teachers are Welsh speakers, but only 27 per cent can teach through
the medium of Welsh.
|
[183]
Mr Llewellyn:
That is correct, yes.
|
[184]
Ms Jardine:
So, there’s already a group of
people there who could be targeted to enable them to feel more
comfortable in teaching Welsh.
|
[185]
Lee Waters:
I was struck, when we held one of
our first stakeholder sessions as part of this inquiry, when a
headteacher of a Welsh-medium school said that when he speaks to
colleagues in the English-medium sector, they talk about having a
shortlist of candidates for a post. He considers that a
luxury—he’s lucky to get applicants, let alone enough
to form a shortlist. So, are you concerned that there’s a
sufficient talent pool or skill pool out there for us to have the
quality coming through in the teaching profession?
|
[186]
Mr Llewellyn:
In respect of recruitment and
retention in teaching in Wales, we’ve always been in a better
and different position to England. We see the headlines, and there
was another one a couple of weeks ago, where a third of new
teachers in England leave within five years. We’ve never had
those problems in Wales. Actually, over the last 10 years,
we’ve cut our intake numbers because we were training too
many teachers in Wales. Now, we’re at about the right level.
That said, for certain traditionally known shortage subjects in
secondary—maths and the like, but also Welsh language and
Welsh medium—it’s always been more difficult to get the
numbers. So, you’re absolutely right. With that target of
2050 in mind, the first thing we need to do is to try and get that
talent pool larger, because it’s always been harder to get
Welsh-speaking teachers.
|
10:45
|
[187]
Lee Waters:
But as things stand, is it
sufficient to fuel an increase in capacity in the Welsh-medium
sector? Schools are struggling to get a shortlist
together.
|
[188]
Mr Llewellyn:
I would say we need more—that
would be my view. Headteachers will tell you that when they
advertise a Welsh-medium post, or it’s in a Welsh language
school, yes, definitely, the numbers to choose from are small, and
if you look at the teacher training numbers each year, the intake
that gained qualified teacher status in August, the number whose
secondary subject was Welsh was 27. So, the bottom line is that
it’s small. We need more.
|
[189]
Lee Waters:
And that’s got to be a concern
in terms of standards, hasn’t it?
|
[190]
Ms Jardine:
Well, I just think you need to have
that body of people, because, obviously, the demand for
Welsh-medium education is growing, and local authorities’
provision is growing, and I think it’s important there that
we are taking account of it. There needs to be a strategic approach
to this development. In previous years, we’ve had an
overproduction generally of teachers, and there have been two
reviews into initial teacher education recruitment numbers, where
it was required for the numbers to be dropped. But we believe
we’re in a position now where that’s actually bottomed
out, and we need to start to look at the needs of the sector, and
to start building those numbers up. And, of course, with widening
the registration to other groups, we can look at increasing pathway
opportunities where people may wish to move from being a learning
support worker into becoming a teacher, or a schoolteacher becoming
a further education lecturer as well. So, there are opportunities,
not just to recruit new people, but to look at the workforce as a
whole and to try and think of new ways to improve development
opportunities for individuals, as well as the sector.
|
[191]
Lee Waters:
And you said that the supply and
demand is now better aligned, but I’m right to say that HEFCW
and the Welsh Government don’t make assessments about the
number of Welsh-speaking teachers that are required. They just make
an overall judgment. Is that right?
|
[192]
Ms Jardine:
Yes, I think—
|
[193]
Mr Llewellyn:
That is correct, yes. The other
point I would like to add to what Angela has said there is that
when the EWC was formed 18 months ago, following a renaming of the
General Teaching Council for Wales, the National Assembly for
Wales, in the Education (Wales) Act 2014 actually put an ability
for us to promote careers in the registered professions. So, that
would be schoolteachers, support staff, but also FE and youth work
and work-based learning. To date, in our 18 months, we’ve not
been asked by Government to take on any specific promotional or
recruitment activities. And, certainly, with this further objective
in this mind, in respect of Welsh speaking, that would seem to be
an area where it may make sense for the Government to invite the
professional body to do that work.
|
[194]
Lee Waters:
And you think that’s doable,
do you?
|
[195]
Mr Llewellyn:
Certainly the work is doable. We see
how these sorts of campaigns operate in other countries and other
professions, and I think we would reiterate that it is encouraging,
that 2050 target. As I said in my first comments, a doubling in
Welsh-speaking numbers is a stiff target, but at least we’ve
got what looks like a realistic timetable. But we have to get those
measures and strategies and implementation plans in place now
really to stand a chance.
|
[196]
Lee Waters:
Okay. Thank you.
|
[197]
Mr Jardine:
I was going to add one more thing,
if I may. Just to say that it’s not just the school sector.
We obviously look after the maintained schools sector, but we need
to, in our opinion, look beyond that, because one of the success
strategies would be engaging people at early years level. And we
think there needs to be a strategy that looks across maintained and
non-maintained sectors, because a lot of the early years provision
obviously occurs in the non-maintained sector. So, that’s key
if you’re looking at recruitment, to look across at everybody
that’s in the provider roles.
|
[198]
Bethan Jenkins:
Mae gan Suzy gwestiwn cyn i fi alw ar
Dawn.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Suzy has a question before I call Dawn.
|
[199]
Suzy Davies:
It’s just on the questions
that you ask: ‘Are you a Welsh speaker?’ and ‘Are
you table to teach through the medium of Welsh?’ I’m
wondering if it would actually be more helpful if you changed the
questions, because, certainly, anyone coming through your system as
a new graduate now, if they come from Wales, will have had some
exposure to the Welsh language as a compulsory part of their
education. We’ve already heard from witnesses that people
come in with different levels of Welsh into whatever the workforce
is. Would it help you to identify what levels of Welsh skills they
have, because self-identifying as a Welsh speaker, for some people
who have Welsh language skills, they may put ‘no’ when,
actually, they’re halfway there?
|
[200] Ms
Jardine: A lot of it’s to do with confidence, and we
recognise that. We almost have a two-tier system in terms of that
confidence. There are those who feel confident in communicating, in
reading and writing, and in public as well it’s a different
skill completely. So, I completely understand that. What we are
doing currently on behalf of the Welsh Government, there’s a
national survey gone out, for the first time, to all registrants
with us at the moment as well, which is asking specifically about
their competence and their experience with the Welsh language. So,
we think there will be some information that comes from that.
We’re hoping that will be reporting in January. Hayden?
|
[201] Mr
Llewellyn: End of January, yes. There’s an extended
question there on registrants’ Welsh language qualifications.
So, working with the Welsh language unit in the Welsh Government,
we’ve tried to expand that as much as we can to get as much
information. But, certainly, we are open to your suggestion as
well. We have an ability to add more questions to the register and,
through the survey, collect information on a regular basis. I think
we, as a council, would want to make that offer to you as a
committee, and to the Welsh Government as well, that one of the
strengths that we have as a body is that we are able to get to the
front door or a tablet or the mobile phone of every single person
who is registered with us, working in education—teachers,
support staff, further education, and so on. So, if the Government
is looking to get more information about the workforce, to
undertake surveys, to get specific Welsh language knowledge, for
example, we are well placed to do that.
|
[202] Suzy
Davies: Well, that’s good. I’m glad to hear that
it’s in hand. Thank you.
|
[203]
Bethan Jenkins:
A allaf i jest gofyn, cyn i Dawn ddod
i mewn, a allech chi ddweud yn benodol faint o bobl sydd yn cymryd
y cwrs sabothol? Roeddech chi’n dweud nad oedd y niferoedd yn
uchel. Jest i gadarnhau ar gyfer y record.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Could I just ask, before Dawn comes in, if you could
tell us specifically how many people actually take the sabbatical
course? You mentioned that the numbers weren’t high. Can you
just put that on the record for us?
|
[204] Mr
Llewellyn: Yes. It’s not a programme that we manage, so I
wouldn’t be in a position to give specific numbers. I
wouldn’t have that to hand.
|
[205]
Ms Jardine: Beth fedrwn ni ei ddweud yw nad ydym yn gweld
bod pobl yn newid beth sydd ar y gofrestr o ran eu hyder i fedru
dysgu drwy’r Gymraeg ar ôl gwneud y
sabbaticals.
|
Ms
Jardine: What we can say is that we don’t see people
changing what’s on the register in terms of their confidence
to be able to teach through the medium of Welsh after doing the
sabbatical.
|
[206]
Bethan Jenkins:
A yw hynny achos nid ydych yn
cysylltu â nhw yn weithredol, neu eu bod nhw jest yn teimlo
nad yw e wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth? A ydych chi’n gwneud
asesiad o pam nad yw hynny’n newid?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Is that because you don’t contact them actively,
or is it just because they feel it hasn’t made a difference?
Have you made an assessment of why that doesn’t change?
|
[207]
Ms Jardine: Nid ydym yn gallu dweud, ond mae yna gwestiwn
i’w ofyn am hynny, onid oes, yn enwedig os bydd y cynllun
hwnnw’n parhau. Efallai bod hynny’n rhywbeth i’w
ystyried fel rhywun sydd yn adfyfyrio ar y broses ei
hun.
|
Ms
Jardine: We can’t tell you that, but there is a question
to be asked there, isn’t there, particularly if that scheme
is to remain in place. That is something that should be considered
as one reflects on the process itself.
|
[208]
Bethan Jenkins:
Sori, ond jest i gadarnhau, felly,
nid eich rôl chi fyddai gofyn iddyn nhw i newid y wybodaeth
yn rhan o’r gofrestr.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: So, just to confirm, it wouldn’t be your role to
ask them to change the information that’s part of the
register.
|
[209]
Ms Jardine: Na. Rydym yn gofyn iddyn nhw yn rheolaidd i
wirio beth sydd ar ein cofrestr amdanyn nhw, a byddem yn gobeithio,
wedyn, os oedd rhywun yn mynd i wneud y cyrsiau hyn, ac os oeddent
yn teimlo eu bod yn fwy hyderus neu’n mynd i weithio yn y
sector Gymraeg, y byddent yn mynd i wirio beth sydd gennym ni ar y
gofrestr am hynny.
|
Ms
Jardine: No. We ask them regularly to check and update the
information on our register, but we would hope that if someone were
to attend these courses, and if they felt that they were more
confident in working in the Welsh sector, or wanted to go into the
Welsh sector, that they would check the information on the register
and update it accordingly.
|
[210]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ocê. Diddorol. Diolch.
Dawn.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Okay. Interesting. Thank you. Dawn.
|
[211] Dawn
Bowden: Thank you. You’ve touched on it already, around
the work around teaching assistants. I think the numbers you
suggested are much higher than we previously thought. So,
we’re talking about pretty much half the workforce now in
schools—our teaching assistants. We don’t have the
information. As you said, they’ve only just become part of
the registrant workforce, so that’s information that
we’ll get as we go along. But you’ve identified that
you think the numbers that will identify as Welsh speakers or able
to teach through the medium will be fewer than teachers. So, my
question is in two parts then: what, do you think, is the
particular contribution that teaching assistants, in the role that
they undertake, can have in the Government’s objective of
achieving 1 million speakers; and what are the particular
challenges around acquiring the necessary language skills for that
particular group?
|
[212] Mr
Llewellyn: I think, for me, if you look at where those teaching
assistants are working, it’s predominantly in early years and
primary. So, if you think about trying to embed a language, that is
your starting point. Certainly, in some of those
settings—some of those primary schools—you’d be
talking well over 50 per cent. It could be that 60 per cent, 70 per
cent or even 80 per cent are support staff rather than teachers.
So, it’s really key that we get it right early; otherwise,
people are not going to take the language on, and it is in those
early years and primary settings. I think that’s it, really.
It’s the fact that more and more of those teaching assistants
are in those primary rather than secondary settings.
|
[213] Dawn
Bowden: Yes. What do you see, if any, would be the particular
barriers to increasing the language skills of that particular
workforce?
|
[214] Mr
Llewellyn: Well, in respect of in-service training, it needs to
be a case of adequate funding and time to do the training, and also
support for employers and by employers. Because, having recently
registered this group, and working closely with their trade unions,
we do sometimes hear about very little opportunity for support
staff to have decent continuing professional development and
professional learning. So, there it is, really. The workforce has
changed: far more teaching assistants, mainly prevalent in early
years and primary.
|
[215] Ms
Jardine: In the work that we do alongside the trade unions
there, we know that there is a thirst to learn amongst the sector
as well, and that training that’s been provided through the
Wales Union Learning Fund, for example, has been really well
subscribed—oversubscribed in many instances—with
courses being run on Saturday mornings, and they’ve had
really high take-up. So, I’d say that the sector is engaged
in the desire for professional development.
|
[216] One thing that
we suggested in our submission was to look at the online learning
that’s available, particularly for the language acquisitions
that are necessary. If you look internationally, there’s a
lot there. We talk about accessing massive open online courses, and
things like that, but when you look at the learning support staff,
our colleagues in the trade unions alert us to the fact that there
aren’t as many there that have access to the digital tools
and technology that might be commonplace for other sectors. So, in
taking any development opportunities forward, you need to be
cognisant of that as well.
|
[217] Dawn
Bowden: So, there are slightly different challenges.
|
[218] Ms
Jardine: Yes. So, I think you’ve got the engagement.
You’ve got the important things there. Obviously, a lot of
support staff are involved in the wider school provision as
well—so, your breakfast clubs and your after-school clubs. I
think if you want the language to thrive and to get away from this
idea that it’s something that you do in your classrooms at
school, to normalise its use, then, you’ve got to look at the
broad wraparound provision as well.
|
[219] Dawn
Bowden: Yes, but unfortunately, we don’t tend to have a
process whereby teaching assistants, learning support assistants,
are backfilled when they’re off, unlike teachers where
there’s a supply teacher provision. There isn’t if a
teaching assistant goes off sick or goes away to train on something
else. It’s a gap that isn’t plugged at the moment,
isn’t it?
|
[220] Ms
Jardine: Yes.
|
[221] Mr
Llewellyn: You are right, but what we found to be interesting
in registering those support staff for the first time, historically
on the register we’ve had over 5,000 teachers working on a
supply basis, but we’ve also gleaned, for the first time now
in Wales, that there are over 3,000 support staff working on a
supply basis through agencies. So, that is getting close to the
same number. But more so, they tend to cover for different reasons:
less for the substantive staff to go out to do CPD; it’s more
for absence and things like that.
|
[222] Dawn
Bowden: Sickness.
|
[223] Mr
Llewellyn: Sickness, yes.
|
[224] Dawn
Bowden: But if we’re going to really encourage that group
to take the time out to develop those skills, they need to have
those positions backfilled while they’re out, don’t
they, really?
|
[225] Mr
Llewellyn: Of course. Yes.
|
[226] Ms
Jardine: Estyn are very good at highlighting good practice. So,
where those opportunities arise for every member of a school staff,
they will have examples of that; and we’d encourage that to
be widely looked at and shared through the sector.
|
[227] Dawn
Bowden: Okay. Thank you very much.
|
[228]
Bethan Jenkins:
Mae gan Jeremy gwestiwn.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Jeremy has a question.
|
[229]
Jeremy Miles:
Jest i ddilyn y cwestiwn ynglŷn
â’r gweithlu blynyddoedd cynnar yn benodol, ond hefyd
yn fwy cyffredinol i’r gweithlu yn gyffredinol, a oes gennych
chi ddadansoddiad o’r dosbarthiad daearyddol o’r
sgiliau i siarad Cymraeg? Beth yw’r argraff sydd gennych chi
o’r patrwm?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Following on from the question on the early years
workforce specifically, but also more generally the workforce in
general, do you have an assessment of the geographical distribution
of skills to speak Welsh? What impression do you have of the
pattern?
|
[230] Mr
Llewellyn: Yes, we do hold that information. It’s there
on the register. It’s as you’d expect in terms of Welsh
language ability, speaking ability and teaching ability. It’s
more prevalent in the north, for example, but you are seeing a
change. The demand for Welsh language teaching skills in Cardiff,
for example, now has increased. You are seeing the population
moving, following the work, in effect. So, we are seeing those
changes.
|
11:00
|
[231] I think one of
the other things that would be worth analysing is to look at the
age profile of our teachers in terms of their Welsh language
abilities. We need to make sure that it’s not dying off at
the end, and we’ve a good flow coming through. As we
mentioned, in the next couple of years we’ll have the same
sort of data for the support staff as well, and those can be
geographically analysed as well.
|
[232] Jeremy
Miles: So, you make a specific point about the age profile
there. Do you have a particular view on the distribution of
language skills within the age profile that you have?
|
[233] Mr
Llewellyn: I’ve not looked at it specifically, but I
don’t think there would be any immediate alarm bells that the
language skills were concentrated in those about to retire. But
it’s certainly something we can look at in more detail along
with the geographics.
|
[234]
Bethan Jenkins:
A ydy e’n bosibl i chi edrych
ar hynny, ac wedyn danfon llythyr neu ddarn o wybodaeth i ni
ynglŷn â hynny?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Would it be possible for you to look at that and then
perhaps send us a letter or some further information on that?
|
[235]
Ms Jardine: Os oes yna unrhyw beth a fydd o help i chi
o’r gofrestr, gofynnwch, a gwnawn ni gyflawni rhestr o beth
rydych chi eisiau.
|
Ms
Jardine: If there is anything that could assist you on the
register, then just please request it, and we will provide you with
that information.
|
[236]
Jeremy Miles:
Byddai hynny efallai yn
werthfawr.
|
Jeremy
Miles: That might be valuable.
|
[237]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ie. Grêt, diolch. Rydym
ni’n symud ymlaen nawr at uwch-sgilio’r ymarferwyr yma.
Mae gan Hannah gwestiynau i chi.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Great, thank you. We’ll move on to the
upskilling of practitioners, and Hannah has some questions.
|
[238] Hannah
Blythyn: You mentioned earlier, I think, the need to look at
new ways to enable the workforce to have development opportunities.
I’d welcome your views on what you think the current capacity
is within the sector to upskill both teachers and teaching
assistants, who perhaps don’t currently teach through the
medium of Welsh. Also, what are your views on the barriers to that?
Particularly, perhaps, for those who may not come from traditional
Welsh-speaking areas, or who lack confidence in their own
ability.
|
[239] Mr
Llewellyn: There are barriers in terms of being in employment.
I alluded to it already. It needs to be support from your employer,
support given to your employer as well, so that teachers and
support staff do have the time and the capacity to be able to do
it. To try and upskill on top of existing teaching and support
staff responsibilities just seems impractical, because obviously
learning a new language, or further developing the language that
you already have, is not an easy thing to do. So, the time and the
support and the funding absolutely has to be there to do it. I
wouldn’t want to develop strategies on the hoof, but I think
we need a range of strategies and implementation plans. There need
to be things to get our young people learning Welsh and upskilling
their Welsh at a young age, and that’s something that is for
the education profession but more widely as well. But then also
those in-service programmes as well. I don’t think, as Angela
said earlier, they should just be concentrated on schools as well.
We have FE practitioners registered with us, work-based learning
practitioners who look after apprenticeships, and also shortly the
youth service as well, and I think we should try and target some of
that skills development across all our education settings, and not
just schools.
|
[240] Ms
Jardine: I think there’s also a role that isn’t
filled currently as well, and it’s something that we’ve
lobbied for as a council, and it’s that there needs to be a
quality assurance of anything, any provision that is out there,
because obviously there are significant amounts of money going into
provision for training and that money needs to be spent in a good
way where it’s going to have impactful results on the things
that we want to see. So, we continue to lobby for having a role in
the quality assurance of CPD, so that the providers that may
suddenly pop up—because people wake up at different times,
and they might be listening to these discussions and thinking,
‘Well, there’s a new market there’, you know, and
design a course or two.
|
[241] What we need to
be assuring ourselves of nationally is that those are equally
available, regardless of where you live, and that you have access
to them even if you’re not in continuous employment, so that
those on the supply list, for example, have access to them, because
they play a key role. Also, that the quality is there, so, the
accessibility is the same and the quality is the same, so there is
a role there for a national body. I’ve taken my lobbying hat
off there as well, but I thought I’d make that point.
|
[242] The other thing
I’d say is that, whilst there is a will to engage with
professional development, you know as well as we do how busy it is
in schools at the moment, and we’re undergoing a period
probably of the most significant change that we’ve had since
1988. It would be remiss of us not to say that this could be really
positive. But if we keep coming at it from an angle where all of
these things are treated separately, it can become overwhelming and
unwieldy. I think the opportunity here is to just pause and look at
all of the activity that’s going on, and to weave this desire
to increase Welsh language speakers through everything that’s
going on and not see it as an adjunct or a bolt-on. I think now is
the time to do that, as the progress is starting to occur.
|
[243]
Bethan Jenkins:
A oes unrhyw gwestiynau eraill ar
uwchsgilio? Popeth yn iawn? Symudwn ymlaen, felly, at ddilyniant,
ac mae gan Jeremy gwestiwn.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Are there any other questions on upskilling?
Everything okay? We’ll move on, therefore, to progression,
and Jeremy has a question.
|
[244]
Jeremy Miles:
Ar y syniad yma o ddilyniant rhwng y
camau addysgiadol o’r blynyddoedd cynnar i addysg statudol,
ac wedyn i’r sector pellach ac uwch, a dweud y
gwir—continwwm y siwrnai ysgol, y siwrnai
addysgiadol—beth yw eich argraff chi o faint o gydweithio
sy’n digwydd ar hyd y siwrnai hynny, rhwng y cyrff sy’n
gyfrifol am bob cam? A oes gennych chi argraff bod hynny’n
digwydd?
|
Jeremy
Miles: On this issue of the continuum from the early years,
through statutory education and to the FE and HE
sectors—that’s the educational
journey—what’s your impression of the collaboration
happening along that journey between the organisations responsible
at all stages? Do you think that collaboration is happening?
|
[245]
Ms Jardine: Rydym ni’n meddwl efallai ei fod yn
dechrau digwydd yn fwy ac yn fwy. Oddi ar fis Ebrill, wrth gwrs,
rydym wedi dechrau cofrestru grwpiau newydd. Erbyn mis Ebrill
nesaf, byddwn yn cofrestru’r rhai sydd yn y grwpiau dysgu yn
y gweithlu hefyd, a grwpiau ieuenctid—y rhai sydd yn gofalu
drostyn nhw hefyd. Felly, mae yna fodd i ni, fel corff, ddechrau
cydweithio rhwng y sectorau achos ein bod yn gweld efallai bod
hynny heb ddigwydd mor dda yn y gorffennol, a bod yna fodd gwella
beth sy’n dechrau digwydd ar hyn o bryd.
|
Ms
Jardine: We think that perhaps it’s starting to happen
more and more. Since April, of course, we’ve started to
register new groups. By next April, we will be registering those
who are in the teaching groups in the workplace, and youth groups
and those who look after those groups. So, there is a way for us,
as a body, to start collaborating between the sectors, because we
see that perhaps that hasn’t been happening as well as it
should have in the past, and there is a means of improving what is
starting to happen at the moment.
|
[246] I don’t
know whether you want to say any more.
|
[247] Mr
Llewellyn: Yes—
|
[248]
Jeremy Miles:
A gaf i jyst ofyn, i bigo un pwynt
o’r ateb, beth fyddech chi’n ei ddweud yw’r
rhwystrau sydd wedi bod yn y gorffennol? Beth yw’r rhesymau
pam nad yw e wedi digwydd yn ddigonol?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Could I just pick up on one point there? What do you see
as the barriers in the past? What are the reasons why it
hasn’t happened sufficiently in the past?
|
[249]
Ms Jardine: Jest y ffaith ein bod ni wedi bod yn gweithio
fel sectorau ar wahân.
|
Ms
Jardine: Just the fact that we’ve been working as sectors
on a separate basis.
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[250]
Jeremy Miles:
Reit. Jest arfer.
|
Jeremy
Miles: So just practice.
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[251]
Ms Jardine: Ie, am wn i.
|
Ms
Jardine: Yes, I suppose.
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[252] Jeremy
Miles: Okay. Sorry.
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[253] Mr
Llewellyn: I think Government deserves credit for formally
recognising that there are a number of sectors responsible and
involved in education and training. So, the decision to re-badge
the GTCW to become the EWC and make a decision—it is Wales
leading the way, actually, that we are registering support staff,
FE, work-based learning and youth work over and above teachers. You
won’t see that elsewhere in the world. So, it is a bold
decision. But as Angela said, having made the decision, it’s
important that all the sectors are talking together, and that the
Government officials responsible for those areas are working
together. We’re seeing it as early days at the minute, and we
sometimes have to undertake a brokering role to bring the officials
together, to work together and see the benefits of sharing and
working together. So, I think it’s important to be realistic
and say that Wales is leading the way here. It’s early days,
but we do need to do more in bringing the sectors together, sharing
best practice, learning and looking at the economies of scale as
well.
|
[254] Jeremy
Miles: Okay. And looking at the question of integration from
another direction, what’s your view on the extent to which,
across the Welsh-medium education sector generally, there is
integration and collaboration between Welsh Government strategy and
local authority strategies and the funding that goes with them?
What’s your sense of how well that picture knits together, if
you like?
|
[255] Mr
Llewellyn: Definitely room for improvement, but I think this
strategy could be the, or one of the, stimuli for that. As Angela
said, it’s important that we treat this strategy not as
another one over and above all the other initiatives, certainly in
education, but that we try and make this cut across all the other
initiatives and challenges that we have. So, it could be that this
is the opportunity to help do it. But there’s certainly room
for improvement.
|
[256] Jeremy
Miles: Can I just ask on that—? What does it look like?
What does the process look like, from your perspective, in terms of
workforce issues, in particular weaving this strategy into the
Donaldson work and the other initiatives? What other sort of
practical steps would you expect to see happening in order for that
to become a reality? It’s a great aspiration, obviously, but
turning it into reality is perhaps a different matter.
|
[257]
Mr Llewellyn:
What I would suggest first is
that we just re-group in
Wales and look at the other initiatives that we have in place,
because the Welsh Government is trying to be bold in terms of
education and acknowledges that it needs to be bold and to improve
because of things like PISA and the OECD and so on. But we have to
improve. So, the Government is trying to be bold in that regard, to
move forward, but there are quite a number of initiatives running
at the moment: the Donaldson curriculum and assessment review; the
reform of initial teacher training; the early years 10-year
strategy—and I could go on. So, I think it’s worth
having a look, re-grouping and seeing where this Welsh language
proposal fits into that, because the bottom line is that, if you
want to succeed to the 1 million target, it is, in the main,
education professionals and practitioners that are going to be the
lead in terms of delivering that. So, if you don’t do that,
step back, have a look and see where this can be integrated into
the existing initiatives and strategies, and also the new ones,
then it probably isn’t going to work.
|
11:10
|
[258]
Ms Jardine:
And it might be as simple as
appointing somebody to do that, looking across the sectors and
looking at the initiatives that are being proposed at the moment,
to make sure that the element of the Welsh language development is
in it.
|
[259]
Jeremy Miles:
Okay. Diolch yn fawr.
|
[260]
Bethan Jenkins:
Neil, cwestiynau ynglŷn â
chategoreiddio a’r continwwm ieithyddol.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Neil has some questions on categorisation and the
continuum.
|
[261] Neil
Hamilton: Where do you think we’ve got to now in culture
and attitudes towards Welsh-medium education in local authorities
and in the education sector generally, and to what extent do you
think there’s a variability in enthusiasm for this and a
willingness to make it happen?
|
[262] Ms
Jardine: In our role, I don’t know whether or not
it’s appropriate to comment, really. All that we can say is
that there is a growing and noticeable call on local authorities to
provide Welsh-medium education, that teachers who are working in
the sector are saying that their Welsh language skills are needing
development as well, because they notice that incidental Welsh is
no longer enough, and we’re looking to increase the levels
that we’re using, and the needs need to be met. There have
been structural changes to the way school improvement has been
introduced in Wales through the consortia, and one of the key
points of that is looking at the role of the athrawon bro,
who supported schools individually and now are being based more in
a hub-school model, to work out. That needs to be looked at, to see
whether or not that’s going to continue in its most powerful
form as well, or whether it gets diluted as it goes into schools.
Where budgets are tight, sometimes the focus on things that
aren’t ring-fenced sort of shifts into keeping staffing as it
can be. Some experience from other areas shows that, where that has
occurred—and you can look at England for this as well, for
example, at the ethnic minority achievement grants; once they were
given to schools, the provision that was ring-fenced and provided
at a local authority level diminished once it went to schools and
became part of the whole, total school budget and wasn’t
ring-fenced. So, there’s a danger that could occur. I’m
not saying that it is, but that’s something to be mindful of
as we go forward. All we can do is provide figures on that
geography, again, and to see whether take-up is greater or lesser,
and where the demand is. It’s for others to comment on
whether they feel that demand is being met and being welcomed. But
I think, certainly, everybody’s signed up officially to what
they need to be doing, and there’s a Welsh Language
Commissioner to make sure that they are now as well.
|
[263] Mr
Llewellyn: I would add that, in terms of the new Welsh
language standards that have been rolled out by the commissioner,
they apply to our organisation from the April coming, and I think
it’s fair to say the bodies to which they’ll apply are
trying to go at them with enthusiasm and endeavour, and it’s
making us think about the quality of our service through the
language of Welsh. We are finding the Welsh Language Commissioner
and her team very, very supportive in making sure that we deliver
on expectations under the standards.
|
[264] Neil
Hamilton: Good; well, that’s very interesting. The other
question I have is in relation to moving education through the
continuum, from English-only schools to bilingual schools, from
bilingual schools to Welsh-medium schools, and so on—what are
the challenges and the potential here in terms of school
categorisation and whether you can give us any opinions on that,
where we are and the practical challenge in making the transition,
because, clearly, it’s a massive decision to take. The timing
of it is difficult.
|
11:15
|
[265] Ms
Jardine: It’s all down to capacity and numbers again,
really, isn’t it? So, the numbers, at the moment,
aren’t there, but what we see is that there is a willingness
there from the vast majority of the profession to engage with Welsh
language development and their role in that as well. So, I think it
comes back to having realistic timescales and to providing
development opportunities and engaging people, rather than
compelling people to join in.
|
[266] Mr
Llewellyn: I would re-emphasise that point about promotion and
recruitment, though, as I say, because, at the end of the day, some
people who can speak Welsh or have the aptitude to do so do leave
and go to England or elsewhere for job opportunities. If we can
make teacher training, FE and support staff roles attractive, so
that we do attract our Welsh speakers and retain them in
Wales—. So, promotion of careers, making sure our careers are
attractive and marketing them appropriately, I think, are really
important as part of this strategy to meet the number.
|
[267]
Bethan Jenkins:
Mae gan Dai Lloyd gwestiwn ar hwn yn
benodol.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Dai Lloyd has a question on that specifically.
|
[268]
Dai Lloyd: Diolch yn fawr. Jest yn dilyn beth roeddech
chi’n ei ddweud am angen brwdfrydedd, wrth gwrs, mae wastad
angen brwdfrydedd ym mhob peth rydym ni’n ei wneud. Ond yn
naturiol nawr, yn benodol ynglŷn â’r angen mewn
rhai mannau i newid agweddau a newid meddylfryd tuag at y Gymraeg,
mae’n gallu bod yn heriol, weithiau, fel rhywun sydd wedi bod
yn ymgyrchu i drio agor ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yn ardal Abertawe
ers rhyw 30 mlynedd, ac yn para i orfod gwneud hynny, yn wyneb,
weithiau, elfennau gweddol elyniaethus i’r iaith. Felly, yn
dilyn beth oedd Neil wedi gofyn ichi ynglŷn ag agweddau
a’ch brwdfrydedd, a ydych chi’n gweld rôl gennych
chi fel cyngor i fod yn ennyn y brwdfrydedd yna tuag at yr iaith
Gymraeg? Yn yr hinsawdd newydd yma, rŵan, mae disgwyl nawr fod
yna filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn mynd i fod erbyn hanner ffordd
trwy’r ganrif yma, achos dyna ydy ewyllys sefydlog y
Llywodraeth. Wedyn, man a man i bobl fynd efo’r lli, yntefe?
A ydych chi’n gweld bod gennych chi rôl fel cyngor,
felly, i ennyn y brwdfrydedd yna rydych chi’n sôn
amdano fe? Wedi’r cwbl, ychydig dros ganrif yn ôl,
roedd gennym ni filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg, a dim ond un ysgol
cyfrwng Cymraeg a oedd gennym ni bryd hynny, a honno ym Mhatagonia,
felly nid oedd hi’n llawer o help. Rwy’n deall bod
pethau wedi newid ers hynny, ond weithiau mae yna agweddau anffodus
gwrth-Gymraeg yn dal i fod. Nid wyf i’n gwybod os ydych
chi’n teimlo bod gennych chi rôl fel cyngor, felly, i
ennyn brwdfrydedd lle bo ei angen.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Thank you very much. Just following on from your
comments and the need for enthusiasm, we always need enthusiasm in
everything that we do. But naturally, and specifically on the need
in some areas to change attitudes and to change the mindset towards
the Welsh language, that can be challenging, as one who has been
campaigning to open Welsh-medium schools in the Swansea area for
some 30 years and continues to have to fight those battles, in the
face of elements that can be quite opposed to the language.
Following on from what Neil asked you about enthusiasm and
attitudes, do you see that you as a council have a role in
engendering that enthusiasm towards the Welsh language? In this new
context, we expect to have a million Welsh speakers by halfway
through this century, because that is the established will of
Government. So, shouldn’t people go with the flow, as it
were, in that regard? Do you think that you as a council,
therefore, have a role in engendering that enthusiasm that you talk
about? After all, a little over a century ago, we had a million
Welsh speakers, and we only had one Welsh-medium school at the
time, and that was in Patagonia, so that wasn’t a great deal
of assistance. I do understand that things have changed since then,
but, sometimes, there are some unfortunate attitudes and some
anti-Welsh attitudes that persist. I wondered if you as a council
felt that you had a role in engendering enthusiasm where
that’s needed.
|
[269] Mr
Llewellyn: Our responsibility is for those in the workforce;
it’s about the workforce. So, we’d say, in the main,
our role is to attract people with the skills, the aptitude or the
interest into the profession. So, while we do have a public role in
respect of safeguarding and the like, in this regard, our role, I
think, primarily is—we would see and we would invite the
Government to take up the clause in the Act to invite us to do work
specifically on promotion and recruitment to get people in.
Because, as I’ve said a few times, the key to this is that
you’ve got the education professionals who can develop the
young people to upskill them. This is the only way to do this.
|
[270]
Ms Jardine: Rydw i’n meddwl hefyd fod angen sylweddoli
nad ydym ni’n gwybod yr atebion i gyd eto, ond mae yna gyfle
inni fel corff hefyd i gyfrannu at hynny wrth ofyn y cwestiynau ar
ran y Llywodraeth a chydweithio efo’r sectorau.
|
Ms
Jardine: I think, also, there is a need to realise that we
don’t know all the answers yet, but there is an opportunity
for us as a body to contribute to that by asking the questions on
behalf of the Government and collaborating with the sectors.
|
[271]
Bethan Jenkins:
A oes unrhyw gwestiynau eraill cyn
inni gloi? Na. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod yma heddiw
ac mae’n siŵr y byddwch chi’n cymryd diddordeb yn
yr ymchwiliad. Hefyd, efallai y byddwn ni’n cysylltu
â chi i ofyn am fwy o wybodaeth yng nghyd-destun y
gofrestr, achos rwy’n credu efallai y byddai pwynt mewn gofyn
ichi ynglŷn
â phrentisiaethau ac yn y blaen hefyd,
ynglŷn â’r gyfran o
bobl sydd yn gwneud prentisiaethau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly,
efallai bod hynny’n rhywbeth inni ysgrifennu atoch chi
ynglŷn ag e hefyd yn y dyfodol, ond diolch yn fawr
iawn ichi heddiw.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Are there any other questions before we close? No.
Thank you very much for coming here today, and I’m sure you
will take an interest in the inquiry. Also, we will perhaps be in
touch to ask for more information in the context of the register,
because I think there would be a point in asking about
apprenticeships, and the proportion of people who are following
apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh. So, perhaps that is
something that we will write to you about as well in the future,
but thank you very much for today.
|
11:19
|
Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu
Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod ar gyfer Eitem 7
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public
from the Meeting for Item 7
|
Cynnig:
|
Motion:
|
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y
cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
|
that the committee resolves
to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
|
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
|
[272]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rwy’n cynnig o dan Reol
Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod
ar gyfer eitem 7. A yw pawb yn hapus i hynny ddigwydd? Diolch yn
fawr.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: I propose under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to
exclude the public for item 7. Is everybody content?
|
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.
|
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
11:20. The public part of the meeting ended at
11:20.
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